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Phild94
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Re: SW8 Speculation and General Discussion

Mon Jan 01, 2018 9:12 pm

MakoMania wrote:
Phild94 wrote:
They may not necessarily tell the truth about the trains, especially as we haven’t seen these yet.

But I doubt it, they may not be aware that Colossus did this as a short period of time


Then again, it doesn't really matter if another park has already done it, it could still be the world's first wooden coaster fully dedicated to going backwards :P

I seriously doubt the stand up wooden coaster idea though, sounds painful!


Can’t disagree, Shockwave at Drayton Manor is definitely not the most comfortable ride in the UK.

And I’m just throwing some speculation about as if they’re going to start saying ‘World’s first’ again then there should be something to it
 
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Re: SW8 Speculation and General Discussion

Mon Jan 01, 2018 9:40 pm

The chance of it being a stand up is quite low. Even if technologically possible, standup's are on the verge of extinction due to expensive maintenance, roughness, a tendency to remove people's ability to procreate, etc. Most parks are eagerly removing stand ups, not experimenting with installing new wooden variants. . Then again, at this stage It's very difficult to see any other potential 'world's first' elements. Worlds first successfully built wooden rollercoaster on the grounds of Alton Towers Theme Park perhaps?
 
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Re: SW8 Speculation and General Discussion

Mon Jan 01, 2018 9:48 pm

I think the fact that up until this point there has been no mention of there being a "world first" is pretty indicative of its relative insignificance. Therefore, I can't imagine it will be a "world first" in relation to the actual ride system/hardware, but perhaps something more tenuous to do with the whole experience.
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Re: SW8 Speculation and General Discussion

Mon Jan 01, 2018 9:53 pm

lewis97 wrote:
I think the fact that up until this point there has been no mention of there being a "world first" is pretty indicative of its relative insignificance. Therefore, I can't imagine it will be a "world first" in relation to the actual ride system/hardware, but perhaps something more tenuous to do with the whole experience.

You probably are right. We know it isn’t anything in the outdoor part (Unless it is something to do with trains), and unless there is something in one of the tunnels, we probably will see something very minor for a world’s first.
It could be cool though if it was a millenium flyer train, but floorless (I don’t know if this would be possible though)
Worlds first floorless woodie. Would certainly be interesting....
 
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Re: SW8 Speculation and General Discussion

Mon Jan 01, 2018 10:02 pm

Unfortunately Millennium flyer trains run far too close to the track for floorless technology to be safely implemented, so based on the information we believe to be true, it would be almost impossible for this to happen. However , we never know if Merlin have a cheeky trick up their sleeve or not, so I wouldn't completely abandon the idea of this happening.
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Re: SW8 Speculation and General Discussion

Mon Jan 01, 2018 10:09 pm

Wait wasn't DBGT marketed as a 'World's First', I don't think they specified what it was that was 'World's First' either.

Or maybe one of the elements of the ride or the theming structure has something to do with 'World's First'. I don't think it'll be something to do twith ride hardware with how transparent thy have been with SW8 construction. Neither did the ITV report mention t will be a 'World's First'. 

With Th13teen's or The Smiler's marketing campaign they specified it would be a 'World's First' quite early into construction whereas it's obviously not the case with SW8. So I doubt the 'World's First' will relied on too much with marketing for SW8.

Also Alton Towers have been quite successful in creating hype amongst the GP without relying on a 'World's First' so I'd imagine this could have been done to please investors.
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Re: SW8 Speculation and General Discussion

Mon Jan 01, 2018 10:38 pm

The worlds first aspect of Ghost Train was only mentioned every now and then on the website and such from what I remember and was consideringvthe whole attractions as one (which it is). No widespread marketing (adverts etc.) ever mentioned it.

I agree with Lewis in that this is just being done to boost the excitement, although who knows at the end of the day. :)
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Re: SW8 Speculation and General Discussion

Mon Jan 01, 2018 11:34 pm

lewis97 wrote:
I think the fact that up until this point there has been no mention of there being a "world first" is pretty indicative of its relative insignificance. Therefore, I can't imagine it will be a "world first" in relation to the actual ride system/hardware, but perhaps something more tenuous to do with the whole experience.

"Ground Breaking" means something new not done before, and "Globally Unique" means only one in the world. So there has been mention of it, this is just the first time they have actually used the words "World First". 
The most likely world first given what we know about the ride is the magnetic anti-rollback technology. Either that or something to do with seating position, i'm not sure a spinning woodie has been done before. 
 
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Re: SW8 Speculation and General Discussion

Tue Jan 02, 2018 12:01 am

dazza4783 wrote:
lewis97 wrote:
I think the fact that up until this point there has been no mention of there being a "world first" is pretty indicative of its relative insignificance. Therefore, I can't imagine it will be a "world first" in relation to the actual ride system/hardware, but perhaps something more tenuous to do with the whole experience.

"Ground Breaking" means something new not done before, and "Globally Unique" means only one in the world. So there has been mention of it, this is just the first time they have actually used the words "World First". 
The most likely world first given what we know about the ride is the magnetic anti-rollback technology. Either that or something to do with seating position, i'm not sure a spinning woodie has been done before. 


I hope not, I know they’ve discussed removing Spinball Whizzer in the LTDP but I hope it’s not going to be adopted into this!

I suppose it’s entirely possible that the people in marketing simply didn’t get the memo about it not being a “worlds first”
 
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Re: SW8 Speculation and General Discussion

Tue Jan 02, 2018 12:38 am

I wonder if it might be similar to what's rumoured to be happening to X at Thorpe? The ITV news interview has a 'theatrical experience' mentioned- "the wooden roller coaster itself is just one small part of the experience" (not that small!) Might it have strong theming like Hex but maybe a bit more - actual actors portraying characters or some similar extra theming aspect? Whatever the case I do now think it will be as significant an addition as Nemesis was thus Nemesis' wooden equivalent in terms of its impact on visitors.
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Re: SW8 Speculation and General Discussion

Tue Jan 02, 2018 12:51 am

It would be good if the Beornen are featured in the pre-show. They do seem to be mentioned quite a lot in promos. I just can't see where they could put a 'World's First, though - if indeed they are genuinely going down that route? It could be, as mentioned above, the seating position? :?
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Re: SW8 Speculation and General Discussion

Tue Jan 02, 2018 1:10 am

Slight change of subject, the music was just briefly mentioned on the construction thread and I'd like to expand on it here. I really hope the park doesn't use IMAscore for this as while they can make some nice music sometimes, I find a lot of their recent compositions have been very generic, as if the park has searched for a certain type of music in a royalty-free website (that all coincidentally have ITHOTMK mixed in). The park have also used a variety of different composers in the past for rides and areas so I'm quite annoyed that most (/all?) of the newer music is IMAscore as it doesn't present the variety of different styles and feel that using a range of composers does. I'd personally love it if Simon from ents composed it as his work has previously been absolutely beautiful and deeply atmospheric. He also composed the Welcoming soundtrack which I could listen to for hours on end without getting sick of it, and would also mean that the already introduced musical and auditory style of the attraction is carried on into the final piece. Having said that, it would also be nice to have a more ambient soundtrack like Hex or The Smiler instead of just a solid music track like Galactica or Spinball for example (another thing IMA seem to do a lot for Towers, other than The Smiler of course).
 
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Re: SW8 Speculation and General Discussion

Tue Jan 02, 2018 9:14 am

I on the other hand would like IMAscore to do the SW8 soundtrack. I absolutely love what they've been producing for the Merlin parks and I really don't understand why people label them as generic etc.
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Re: SW8 Speculation and General Discussion

Tue Jan 02, 2018 9:39 am

Back to that post the new video side tracked me from.


My new avatar is a clue to where my thinking's going as I was chosen at Scarefest,  the second time I did the scare maze 'The Welcoming' on Halloween I was actually one of the chosen ones- three things to note:
1. Being chosen you were marked on your cheek with two brown lines.
2. Being chosen you were singled out as deserving of the utmost respect from the community, something of a village V.I.P.
3. Being chosen all the villagers interacted with you referencing the respect you deserved and an important event to follow that you were a significant part of, and the fact they would find you/ return to you later.
Hold those thoughts.


I've been off here for a bit until recently with work and other real life stuff but I'm back (apologies!) to share some more thoughts following the competition and recent campaign which I think is one of the best build up campaigns a park has ever done.

This is going to be a long post as it's wrapping up a lot of my previous and more recent thoughts, but it's worth it. It's kind of beautiful and unexpectedly positive in a philosophical way! And I may sneak in a few puns. And yes it is very geeky- I am a writer and wordsmith creative type which explains a lot including why I tend to as well.

For me the dual interpretation of the theme I considered is now confirmed and very intentional.
Merlin are being really clever and The Wickerman (too confirmed by all the implications now to be a red herring) works on two levels:
1. For those who like a darker horror theme: it is a match to the films and they can use this rather more sinister form for scare mazes and that audience- the scare maze certainly didn't shy away from this with its charred person emerging from a pyre so it can be the more unnerving theme of *that thing that happens in the films* but pyre's where I think the second more family friendly angle is as
2. For the family friendly in-ride angle:
as I've said in response to people questioning 'is a wickerman theme too gruesome for a park to use' I think they've cleverly used this less gory form for the ride
(a bit like The Smiler ride theming compared to The Sanctuary scare maze - I didn't do that scare maze but I'm guessing it was similarly a much darker use of the ride's theming).
Marking with ash, the skeletons and names on banners written out in the symbols in the scare maze, ritual....
The wickerman structure and the ritual associated with 'being chosen' is how the villagers honor their dead.
And it's more positive and less Doom & Sons and gloom than it first sounds.

Putting my Agatha Christie / Columbo / Through the keyhole head on. Let's look at the evidence so far.
Why am I now certain of this funeral rite theme and more specifically a cremation aspect?

"Cremation is the combustion, vaporization and oxidation of cadavers to basic chemical compounds, such as gases, ashes and mineral fragments...
Cremation may serve as a funeral or post-funeral rite" / A pyre (Ancient Greek: πυρά; pyrá, from πῦρ, pyr, "fire"),[1][2] also known as a funeral pyre, is a structure, usually made of wood,
for burning a body as part of a funeral rite or execution. As a form of cremation, a body is placed upon or under the pyre, which is then set on fire.. (Wikipedia)
Cremation equals restarting the cycle, carbon to carbon, the rings on the tree of the first clue, and all the other clues we have point here.
Fire is hot because the conversion of the weak double bond in molecular oxygen, O2, to the stronger bonds in the combustion products carbon dioxide and water releases energy...... the bond energies of the fuel play only a minor role here.[2] At a certain point in the combustion reaction, called the ignition point, flames are produced. The flame is the visible portion of the fire. Flames consist primarily of carbon dioxide, water vapor, oxygen and nitrogen. (Again Wikipedia). Hold these thoughts too.

This body of evidence is from the combustible I mean combination of teasers and prequel experience we've had to date.

THE WELCOMING
THE WICKERMAN
THE AWAKENING
All three syllables and twelve letters

BE CHOSEN
BEORNEN
BURNING
Less of a close match but it strikes me we may see BEORNEN change symbols and letters into BURNING soon (both have 7 letters)

The competition:
( Reconnect ) / tree / centre / chosen / fusing / ritual
Tree - ash, 'age running rings round you' clue- trees are old and aging also means reaching your end or rebirth depending what you believe, also a clue to time, same context
Reconnect/centre, either return to the earth or again whatever you believe regarding death, return to seed (which is true whatever you believe- Earth recycles, even soil has its origins)
Centre also hints at heart which in turn hints at hearth
Chosen- again this is linked to many belief systems in many cultures, that death is a chosen time or for atheist types it's just when fate 'chooses you' as it were, deciding your time is up,
'be chosen' is perhaps a positive in the villagers eyes- enjoy your life but do not live it in fear of its end, live it with purpose.
Fusing- again the return to Earth, carbon to carbon, carbon is an element that fuses with elements to make much of our universe, overlaps with other ideas of elements,
"Classical elements typically refer to the concepts in ancient Greece of earth, water, air, fire (and sometimes aether)" (Wikipedia)
Ritual- ceremony such as one to honor the dead- this was directly mentioned re the scare maze - I'll come back to that
These are well 'chosen' words for they also link to fire, wood and a special event where you make a big fire (Halloween is also close to bonfire night of course, burning the guy)
The message upon entering the competition and thus choosing to want to be chosen: "Thank you. Your time will come."

The videos:
"The time is upon us"
Carving out the wickerman image into tree bark- marking the passing of the deceased "pay homage..."?
..."and unite" (echoing the previous line of reconnecting with the elements) > unite as a community to honor the deceased, yet also, when life ends
to (re)unite - (re)connect with your world, which is of course your beginning, death not being something to fear because you have become part of your world through living your life
The end of life: "it is done", "in his shadow you will truly see the light" (Death?, could there be a bit of a grim reaper hint)
Passing on to something else? "The awakening has begun", "an ancient ideology", is this of an ouroboros nature?: something constantly re-creating itself (fire effectively keeps itself going in the right conditions, at its end life recreates life through nature's recycling processes),
the Nemesis egg (a death/birth easter egg). "Re-assess your modern *lives* ", "Re-connect with the Earth and its elements"
"Prepare for something big", rituals, death itself, funerals are one of society's most revered events and prepared with a high level of importance by many cultures
"a beacon of hope that can save us all", "putting their bravery to the test" - Death as a ride theme? That's a bit miserable isn't it? I don't think the death theme is such a negative one,
it's partly referencing how we cope with death, our pondering that it may not be the end, even if all we do is return to the earth even that view is something we are reminded to see as a positive, everything being connected and of worth
"discover", brighter future", note at points like this- there's some laughter in the videos that supports the more sinister interpretation of the theme too.
"as the sun's warmth gives light to the earth" (see my comments re. carbon), the sun provides energy that can create or destroy (the sun itself can cause fires)
Cleverly echoing this "focus our energy" (this is how the sun causes fire, yet also references rituals such as funerals/ death ceremonies again)
Highlighting the A symbol which is one of the symbols alluding to the wickerman logo, = beginnings? A seems quite deliberately drawn with a wispy smoketrail and up arrow through a horizon line
One villager looking to the skies as another falls to the earth.....
"Gift" fits double meaning - can be a sacrifice or offering, the blindfold bit in this video fits as per the scare maze
And all the multi-meaning light references (light burns)- such as beacon
"We interrupt this to bring you good news. You are invited to a celebration; a celebration of our Earth and its beauty. All this noise. All this technology.
It's too much, isn't it? There's no time or space to think, is there? Deep down you know the truth, don't you? The technology has now taken the reigns. How did you get here?
Maybe it doesn't matter. What matters is this chance; your opportunity to reconnect with the Earth. Come join us near the woods and partake in our celebration. How far you choose to go... that is your choice. What part you choose to play... only you can decide. Be chosen on the night where the living meets the dead."

Even the phrase "the welcoming" fits both birth and death and how societies celebrate both

On 'the beornen':
It's a clever name and I really like it- good choice- as a poet the most powerful words are those that convey multiple meaning and this was a perfect choice.
Aside from the fact it hints at burning, the bear/boar imagery in the scare maze, and born/borne and links to being/be chosen it links nicely to the origins of various words
and I'm a total word nerd so I love this (it's also nice for its links to old English history which gives it a great feel within the theming of how Alton are building up to SW8.

I've done some research and found some interesting links.

I'll leave you these little nuggets to find, see if you can spot things I spotted
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beorn#Con ... d_creation   and   https://www.etymonline.com/word/bear including as a verb

https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=oH9 ... dq=Beornen
under 'balew' in the above linking the word to both torment and burning as well as the two entries for 'balew', again showing word is clever choice for both interpretations



I also noticed something when I re-listened to the music from the scare maze regarding the 2017 scarefest images- do they show the beornen? Are the beornen the spirits of the living and dead,
the actual connection between the two, that which fuses them however you interpret this?, the beings, the villagers
In the videos: "the beornen are rarely seen" - yet - "we are the beornen", "the beornen have been learning", "unite with the chosen ones"
Look at the shadowy figures in front of the towers in the image here from the scarefest images- two of them very clearly echo poses in the videos.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jUwgBAAs42Q

Other things in the scare maze:
Clues to elements other than wood (the 'be chosen' rock, water etc- still thinking we won't just see wood and fire in the finished attraction.)- wood bark on the soil, carbon connections, think what soil is, likewise the dunking stool and well- perhaps a hint at how birth/naming is marked, fusing could be that fusing of life- it's beginning and end, ashes to ashes, carbon to carbon, carbon fuses to form other things
"Carbon compounds form the basis of all known life on Earth, and the carbon-nitrogen cycle provides some of the energy produced by the Sun and other stars.
... it forms an extraordinary variety of compounds, ... According to current physical cosmology theory, carbon is formed in the interiors of stars" (Wikipedia)
Carbon is part of both steel and wood. Remember things changing in the videos? Reconnect with the elements...
The marking with ash: "Ashes were used in ancient times to express grief" (Wikipedia, the font of all knowledge, again)
"Ash or ashes are the solid remains of fires. Specifically, it refers to all non-aqueous, non-gaseous residues that remain after something is burned." "Charcoal is the lightweight black carbon
and ash residue produced by removing water and other volatile constituents from animal and vegetation substances. Charcoal is usually produced by slow pyrolysis — the heating of wood or other substances in the absence of oxygen." again from Wikipedia- ash linked to carbon and the life-death cycle and cremation as a funeral rite.
As far as the theme being positive not just death, death and more death- there was a lot of earthly beauty theme in the maze, and questioning our focus such as how focused we our on consuming (a clever pun on fire but also the fact that we too are ultimately consumed.), it wasn't all fear,
the scare was the unknown and the questioning what was going on, but much of the experience was actually a pleasant one.
Linking to the video quote "in his shadow you will truly see the light" I'm wondering was the blindfold bit just before you saw the pyre? In theme terms this again is that death/rebirth theme
and I'm still thinking there could be a dark tunnel just before the main 'fire' themed part of the ride and that both these things hint at this. The darkest hour is just before the dawn.
In the evening the sun sets, in the morning it rises, yet as the light goes out the lights go on.
Ritual- ceremony such as one to honor the dead- this was directly mentioned re the scare maze alluding to things such as 'the day of the dead' and Halloween:
"The story so far….
The woods surrounding the village of Alton harbor a mysterious group,
which until recent sightings were unseen by the modern world. Whispers around the village say that the group are angered by people abusing the world’s natural resources
and the rapid advance of technology.
Every year the secluded group host a festival to celebrate their own interpretation of Halloween – paying homage to the earth and celebrating the crossover between the living world and the dead.
The group have recently infiltrated the Alton Towers Resort and for the first time are allowing outsiders to celebrate with them.
But what part will you (‘the outsiders’) play in this ritual? You’ve been Chosen and are about to find out."
From https://www.thewelcoming.co.uk/story-so ... -be-chosen

So this campaign really appeals to arty types like myself- there's so much clever subtlety and actual beauty to it (even the woodlice in one of the videos- genius, I loved that and similar easter eggs), did anyone realise they smoked us a clever red herring that may have been missed with the 'smokehouse' plans for the old 'Flu (m) e (flue!)' building (now scrapped), the London video (London 'eye' / raven?- death link again and death superstitions link, the chains (Hex is tree/death and chains are associated with ghosts and horror), there are more easter eggs like these I'm sure and for the non-enthusiasts who don't know all the extra bits we do they're cooking this one nicely on a tastily creative slow burn.

The letter symbols tie in with some of these ideas thematically. Their team did some good brainstorming!

Something else I really like about the marketing - perhaps due to Merlin's concerns over if wood would appeal to the public versus steel alternatives, is that it's very much oriented towards fostering an appreciation of wood very cleverly so between the lines it's subtly saying appreciate wood as a coaster 'medium' not just steel!
As a big fan of wooden coasters (I love steel too) I adore the fact they're doing a bit of wooden coaster PR, also possibly a bit of a nod to us enthusiasts who've been pleading with Merlin
that wood is good for a long time and how much we love it! From reactions I overheard at the park people are really excited about the new ride and think it looks really good but there are probably a few wood skeptics out there who might need a nudge towards appreciating it and that it's not 'old fashioned' (the only sort-of negative comment I overheard albeit not said in a specifically negatively  critical way was 'they're building an old fashioned ride'), erm, no, they're building a new ride and the material they're using is wood! It's fusing with their offering of steel coasters!
See how the videos make woodland and trees and appreciating them a central focus.
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Re: SW8 Speculation and General Discussion

Tue Jan 02, 2018 9:51 am

Guys.. the "World's First" element has been staring us in the face the entire time.. The World's First Wardley Drop on a GCI in a tunnel.

It's that simple :lol

In all seriousness.. I don't think it will be the Coaster having a secret element, however the only place I can see anything happening with a world's first interaction is in that shed! #WhatsInTheMaintenanceShed
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Re: SW8 Speculation and General Discussion

Tue Jan 02, 2018 10:21 am

Concerning what 8byfire wrote, (I didn't want to quote it because it is so long!) I think that's a brilliant idea, and would love it if that's what merlin have thought up of. Merlin are probably trying to appeal to everyone for this coaster so by having what you said it would fit in. I think it is a great backstory to it all and basically ties in everything we know so far.
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Re: SW8 Speculation and General Discussion

Tue Jan 02, 2018 10:25 am

Nutty Man wrote:
Concerning what 8byfire wrote, (I didn't want to quote it because it is so long!) I think that's a brilliant idea, and would love it if that's what merlin have thought up of. Merlin are probably trying to appeal to everyone for this coaster so by having what you said it would fit in. I think it is a great backstory to it all and basically ties in everything we know so far.

Thanks- people don't always like long posts but it felt like the right time for such a summary. I spotted an error I made though- the awakening, awakening is four syllables but it's three from the W, and 'a wake/ awake' linking wake and awaken thus death and birth, Merlin sometimes really can create a little magic.
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Re: SW8 Speculation and General Discussion

Tue Jan 02, 2018 10:27 am

The TowersStreet forum is so filled with negativity that I couldn't even read all of their comments, it looked like a group of hurt fanboys just because this ride isn't a bit bigger than they had hopped. It's ridiculous. One commenter in particular made me laugh; a certain person who was slating the ride and saying they will not be visiting next year, yet their username is WickerManiac and their avatar picture was of the logo...

However, I was able to find the video and I think it's interesting that they've left it this late to use the World's First tagline. It either means they have produced something last minute to make it a World's First (which I doubt) or they've realised they need to something to keep people interested because of the amount of videos of pictures recently. I really don't know what the World's First could be, it must be in the indoor section before the lift hill, or in the maintenance building - I really don't have any ideas at this point. All I know is that I can't wait to get on what looks a really fun ride. Well done Alton Towers.
 
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Re: SW8 Speculation and General Discussion

Tue Jan 02, 2018 10:42 am

I don't actually think the "worlds first" statement has any weight to it anymore. After Th13teen its all become a grey area as to what a world's first is. In a way, I hope it's not got any secret element and we just have the money being plowed into theming of the station and queue line buildings and surrounding areas. My prediction...

"Worlds first secret weapon with decent theming in 20 years"
 
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Re: SW8 Speculation and General Discussion

Tue Jan 02, 2018 10:53 am

8byfire wrote:
Nutty Man wrote:
Concerning what 8byfire wrote, (I didn't want to quote it because it is so long!) I think that's a brilliant idea, and would love it if that's what merlin have thought up of. Merlin are probably trying to appeal to everyone for this coaster so by having what you said it would fit in. I think it is a great backstory to it all and basically ties in everything we know so far.

Thanks- people don't always like long posts but it felt like the right time for such a summary. I spotted an error I made though- the awakening, awakening is four syllables but it's three from the W, and 'a wake/ awake' linking wake and awaken thus death and birth, Merlin sometimes really can create a little magic.

Intresting points but one thing was wrong, not all people were marked with a double chosen mark.

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