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Tom G
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Re: Nemesis: Sub-Terra Discussion (May Contain Spoilers)

Tue Apr 10, 2012 10:35 am

Unfortunately it won't as the mechanism of release is key. The extra weight could theoretically force the release process to happen a fraction of a second quicker. There's more of a jerk at the moment of release at London - that's the 'punch' people refer to, not the speed at which it reaches the bottom.

Rather than explaining gravitational law, I think it'd be better if someone could explain why people feel a difference between these and the London Extremis, or dismiss their claim by explaining that it's impossible?
 
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Re: Nemesis: Sub-Terra Discussion (May Contain Spoilers)

Tue Apr 10, 2012 10:51 am

The difference is probably due to the fact drop towers do not actually "free fall" as the gondola is running on a rail. Most changes in the feeling of the drop probably are due to differences in friction on the running rails as well as changes in air resistance.

Some drop towers such as Detonator use hydrolic rams at the top of the tower to give the gondola an extra push on release.
 
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Re: Nemesis: Sub-Terra Discussion (May Contain Spoilers)

Tue Apr 10, 2012 12:17 pm

Tom G wrote:
Rather than explaining gravitational law, I think it'd be better if someone could explain why people feel a difference between these and the London Extremis, or dismiss their claim by explaining that it's impossible?


The argument was that weight would effect the feel of the ride, so I disproved it, I feel adding to the conversation.

I still think air resistance/drag is the main reason for the ride packing less punch, it really does make a huge difference.  If I knew the weight of the cart and the size of the floor I would work out the difference.

Surely all towers of the same make would use the same mechanism?

I would also be surprised if extremis used a forced pull down rather than free fall, you can see the ride works on a chain, which I would assume is primarily there to pull the ride up.

The reason I would be surprised at this is it would be hard to gently slow down a forced quicker than free fall pull smoothly. It has magnetic brakes that work brilliantly to slow a free fall, but if it was being mechanically dragged, I can't see it working so well... if that makes sense. Especially as it is such a small distance.
 
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Re: Nemesis: Sub-Terra Discussion (May Contain Spoilers)

Tue Apr 10, 2012 12:31 pm

I've heard lots of people saying that these rides work on a chain, does anyone have a picture of this or anything that demonstrates it?
 
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Re: Nemesis: Sub-Terra Discussion (May Contain Spoilers)

Tue Apr 10, 2012 12:56 pm

wburgess wrote:


The argument was that weight would effect the feel of the ride, so I disproved it, I feel adding to the conversation.

I still think air resistance/drag is the main reason for the ride packing less punch, it really does make a huge difference.  If I knew the weight of the cart and the size of the floor I would work out the difference.

Surely all towers of the same make would use the same mechanism?

I would also be surprised if extremis used a forced pull down rather than free fall, you can see the ride works on a chain, which I would assume is primarily there to pull the ride up.

The reason I would be surprised at this is it would be hard to gently slow down a forced quicker than free fall pull smoothly. It has magnetic brakes that work brilliantly to slow a free fall, but if it was being mechanically dragged, I can't see it working so well... if that makes sense. Especially as it is such a small distance.


Extremis towers dont use a forced pull down but i was demonstrating one reason for towers of different manufacturers feeling different.

I too believe the floor adding drag will be the issue, the floor acts as a mini parachute and as sky diving proves, you dont need to add much surface area to dramatically increase drag.

As for a video of the chain you can see it in many of the early videos of terry that use night vision.
 
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Re: Nemesis: Sub-Terra Discussion (May Contain Spoilers)

Tue Apr 10, 2012 1:11 pm

Not really read any of the Sub-Terra comments until after riding the attraction a few days ago...all I can say is, what are most of you talking about!? I mean it only cost £4 million that worth about 2 Submissions, so really what were you expecting, it’s not like the overhyped the advertisement to the max of something like th13teen! It was a decent and honest ride and I thoroughly enjoyed it, I personally think its £4 million well spent! Although in the past 2 days that I went it on both days had considerable ‘down-time’ but besides that I got to experience it twice!
The queue is very enjoyable and nice to use sections of the queue that had laid dormant for so many years! The queue line screens are a bit cheesy in certain parts of the video, but overall was a great impression on what to expect, I don’t think they have made the screens loud enough, for it to impact the guests, who generally ignore all attention to the screens, which is a shame because, it is actually rather technical (when looked at closely) The queue line moved very quickly and efficiently, and it was nice not to feel like cattle!

The batching area is fast and efficient; the dots on the floor however, are not listened to, because the General Public tend not to listen to instruction, so I can see that ending up like the CATCF batching area! Once the video has played, it’s time to go into the elevator, which is OK nothing too far of the Charlie lift, nothing very special but at least there is a feeling of movement to a static room! No one ever listens to the video screens once again, so it’s more of a free for all into the main attraction!

The themeing is outstanding everywhere but none more so than the centre piece of the nemesis egg, it caught my attention and it really felt like we were in the midst of a highly dangerous area of the Phalanx research facility, I personally felt the staff made the ride what it was. The theming in the centre piece reminded me of an alien Armageddon at DLRP!

The ride, is a small drop tower, but even startled me when it dropped, because I did not realise the floor would drop with us, I thought it would slowly increase to its maximum height then drop! (I didn’t know anything about the ride before trying it) Therefore when it did drop it was a great feeling and the theming on the floor below, really added to the chaos. Of course that’s now the end of the ride but the chaotic strobes and red sirens shine out in the egg room, and you are rushed off to the second elevator that really was great! I felt the elevator though could have been a little louder and sharper on the movement of it, when the nemesis creature is attacking it, however it still made many scream, none more so than the staff member as the door slides open!
So to be honest, shame on a few of you for criticising Sub Terra, considering its budget! Heck if you have another £4 million to donate to Alton, I am sure they will create the attraction that you want!

The ride experience is a great supporting attraction, and yes the story is not the strongest they could have achieved, but the chaos certainly adds to it, and I can see what some of you mean, that Sub Terra could easily go ‘Live’ at Scarefest!

Single riders were also incredibly quick!
Look at all the detail in the egg room, just before it all goes chaotic, because there are tiny details that change just before the eggs hatches!

Why moan about the drop? Its a standard drop and its more about the theme than the ride intensity of the drop! Its about the same intensity as Th13teen! So stop moaning! Think of the cost invloved in having a mechanism to remove the floor below your feet before dropping! Also, why would the drop have to be 'helped' to be pushed downwards, because I could now argue, why did they not make it bounce like a hog fropper, blah blah blah! :)
Last edited by jackgcse on Tue Apr 10, 2012 1:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
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Re: Nemesis: Sub-Terra Discussion (May Contain Spoilers)

Tue Apr 10, 2012 1:18 pm

jackgcse wrote:
So to be honest, shame on a few of you for criticising Sub Terra, considering its budget!
I'd say that, considering its budget and the fact that the ride hardware isn't terribly expensive, we are in a good place to criticise. I don't like the way that people seem to think criticism is a shameful thing. The vast, vast majority of critique on this forum has been constructive and has given Towers ideas on how to improve.

I suppose you have only ridden very recently? In opening week the ride was still (fairly) poor and according to reports on opening weekend it was utterly dire. Now, the recent improvements have made the ride supposedly much better - which is probably why your review is more positive than many that have been written in this thread.

It is, however, unfair to say "shame on you all" for criticising the project. We have known from the start that the ride element would not be outstanding, but it was the original lack of a well built-up story and a rushed main attraction that caused criticism. Quite simply, the attraction opened unfinished.
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Re: Nemesis: Sub-Terra Discussion (May Contain Spoilers)

Tue Apr 10, 2012 1:22 pm

Jack people where critical of Sub Terra in its opening weeks as it was poor. If you went a few days ago then you would have had a completely different ride as the whole experience has been changed considerably and this change seems to be getting positive reviews.
 
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Re: Nemesis: Sub-Terra Discussion (May Contain Spoilers)

Tue Apr 10, 2012 1:49 pm

As I say, I didn't want to read the post before I went! However I am usually the first to fire criticism at a new ride, however I didn't really find fault with the ride. Therefore I felt it was unjust to smash the ride into the dirt, on opening weekend or whenever! I don't want to dig a hole, and as for my comment on 'shame on the criticism' there is a different between criticism and slagging the ride off than actually creating constructive advice, personally I think it’s very easy for us on this forum to find areas for improvement on any attraction, and we all feel we know better than what Alton may have been thinking, however I think everyone has got to remember the incredibly tight time and budget available, and yes for Alton £10000 may not seem a lot to them, however it soon adds up. But I don't want to make a dig at constructive advice; I just wish to back my corner of my post! :)
Also it was a shame on a few of your for criticism it, not shame on you for giving it constructive criticism! So bear that in mind!
Last edited by jackgcse on Tue Apr 10, 2012 1:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
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Re: Nemesis: Sub-Terra Discussion (May Contain Spoilers)

Tue Apr 10, 2012 1:54 pm

jackgcse wrote:
Therefore I felt it was unjust to smash the ride into the dirt, on opening weekend or whenever!
I think that if you had ridden it on opening weekend, or even opening week - you would have "smashed the ride into the dirt" as you say. As Dave and I have mentioned, the ride has seen additions and vast improvement since then - adding to the story and making the whole experience seem more logical and less rushed. Whilst I am yet to ride it with the new additions, I think that everyone's criticism was reasoned and just at the start of the season.
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Re: Nemesis: Sub-Terra Discussion (May Contain Spoilers)

Tue Apr 10, 2012 1:59 pm

Well its hard for me to read damning reviews, after my expereince, so therefore neither of us have close links towards the ride! So therefore we have a reason to agree to disagree!..fair enough?
I am interested to know what effects were not operational at the start of the season, however so I can get a flavour of what was missing to the current state of the attraction.
 
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Re: Nemesis: Sub-Terra Discussion (May Contain Spoilers)

Tue Apr 10, 2012 2:05 pm

jackgcse wrote:
I am interested to know what effects were not operational at the start of the season, however so I can get a flavour of what was missing to the current state of the attraction.
The batching area did not have a pre-show video and was not fully enclosed. Both sets of lifts sometimes didn't work properly. In the core, you would see the egg, drop, then come back up to see it cracked and then have to 'escape' so it was rushed and didn't really explain the story (as opposed to the new way of doing it where the egg cracks open before you drop). Leg ticklers and back pokers were often not operational and the second lift (when working) did not get plunged into darkness.

That is I think everything that was different/broken with the ride in the opening week or two.
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Re: Nemesis: Sub-Terra Discussion (May Contain Spoilers)

Tue Apr 10, 2012 2:08 pm

Fair justification then, I did not realise the level of un-finished effects! I could see why there would have been moans about it! However I can assure the doubters it is money well spent, as long as you have the expereinces I have had! Its just a shame it still suffers from big down time!
 
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Re: Nemesis: Sub-Terra Discussion (May Contain Spoilers)

Tue Apr 10, 2012 2:51 pm

jackgcse wrote:
Fair justification then, I did not realise the level of un-finished effects! I could see why there would have been moans about it! However I can assure the doubters it is money well spent, as long as you have the expereinces I have had! Its just a shame it still suffers from big down time!


Well it is a new ride for the park afterall.
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Re: Nemesis: Sub-Terra Discussion (May Contain Spoilers)

Tue Apr 10, 2012 6:07 pm

Initial thoughts after experiencing Sub-Terra for the first time. An all round good solid addition to the theme park. Very well themed, staff acted well, good effects - although it felt rushed and the first lifts are just pointless. I enjoyed it.

Will write up a full review when I'm back home.
 
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Re: Nemesis: Sub-Terra Discussion (May Contain Spoilers)

Tue Apr 10, 2012 6:55 pm

Since I've got a few minutes spare (in the Alton Towers Hotel right now! :D ) I'll add a few little views of mine.

The first lift has no effect whatsoever. If it was not for the lights I wouldn't have believed anything was happening. On my first ride a girl looked up to her father "we're not moving are we". This needs to be priority. Like Nightfall mentioned I believe, adding a small jolt at the start and a small jolt at the end will emphasise the lift starting and stopping. They need to try and find a way of making it not vibrate when guests enter the lift. With it vibrating the whole time you know you're not moving. Simply having it vibrating when the lift is 'moving' will give a more realistic effect.

The main chamber is fantastic, I must say. Very well themed and the egg was much larger than I was expecting. The 'story' plays out nicely. Showing the broken egg first is great, as many believe 'that is it', then it drops and does give unsuspecting guests a great shock. The only downfall would be that in the bottom of the pit the lights are not bright enough. On my first go I couldn't make out the eggs that it was so quick, it took a second ride to actually notice the eggs.

The second lift, again, brilliant. The jolts were great and the lift going pitch black did drive in more of the fear factor this attraction thrives to achieve.

I've got lots more to say although I'll dig into that with a full review. My only main disappointment was the first lift, apart from that bravo to Alton Towers and Merlin! A decent addition to the park, it just still needs those few more tweaks before the experience feels whole.
Last edited by James on Tue Apr 10, 2012 7:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
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Re: Nemesis: Sub-Terra Discussion (May Contain Spoilers)

Tue Apr 10, 2012 7:09 pm

James wrote:
The first lift has no effect whatsoever. If it was not for the lights I wouldn't have believed anything was happening. On my first ride a girl looked up to her father "we're not moving are we". This needs to be priority.


I said this in the Review topic too. Whether the effects weren't working properly when I went on I'm not sure, as a lot of other people have said both lifts are quite good. I actually said to my friends whilst in the first lift, "So, fakest lift of the year award goes to Alton Towers". I like to describe it as a 3-course meal; the starter's crap, so it leaves a bad taste in your mouth (in this case you know the lift isn't moving/going underground, and you're underwhelmed by the uneffectiveness of the lift), so it sets itself up for more crapness.
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Re: Nemesis: Sub-Terra Discussion (May Contain Spoilers)

Tue Apr 10, 2012 7:27 pm

Hiya, I have been following sub-terra since the very beginning, and have never commented, but I have read every post about the ride! Not sure if anyone will be interested in my pointless views as its pretty much been said many time before.

I was one of the first in-line on opening day. Really excited about the ride! The opening day has been talked about loads but I just have to say, the chav's yelling at me was annoying and not fun. The guy with beard in he que line however, fantastic.

The ride on opening day was good. I knew what was going to happen n was pretty hyped up before it dropped. When it dropped i was just holding so tight ready for it to drop again! But.. as you have all said, it didnt so it was pretty disappointing when it just went back up and opened....

I went again few days ago. Same theme, same annoying yelling, same small drop with let down sequencing. Only difference was the addition of a long painful jab in the back, and I didn't really feel the leg ticklers.

My partner was waiting outside and told me everyone who came out said it was awful. I hung around outside and heard the same thing.

As for the improvements, I'm sure if it was in reverse, meaning it was now how it was on opening day, you would still be praising the 'improvements'. As I said to my friend - You can't polish a turd

But on a positive side there are parts I really like, and I ride it really wanting and trying to think how great it is, but when the ride ends I'm still left with the same feeling. If only there was just a little bit of a walk through maze or something when you leave the lift it would be great. The un-themed corridor at the ends just seems like the ran out of time, money, effort or ideas. Or all 4.
Last edited by magicmanben on Wed Apr 11, 2012 6:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
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Re: Nemesis: Sub-Terra Discussion (May Contain Spoilers)

Tue Apr 10, 2012 7:30 pm

James wrote:
Since I've got a few minutes spare (in the Alton Towers Hotel right now! :D ) I'll add a few little views of mine.

The first lift has no effect whatsoever. If it was not for the lights I wouldn't have believed anything was happening. On my first ride a girl looked up to her father "we're not moving are we". This needs to be priority. Like Nightfall mentioned I believe, adding a small jolt at the start and a small jolt at the end will emphasise the lift starting and stopping. They need to try and find a way of making it not vibrate when guests enter the lift. With it vibrating the whole time you know you're not moving. Simply having it vibrating when the lift is 'moving' will give a more realistic effect.




That would be my main criticism too, both opening weekend and on Saturday.  Given the other improvements made over the last couple of weeks, I hope that this is something that Towers will come back to and work on.
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Re: Nemesis: Sub-Terra Discussion (May Contain Spoilers)

Tue Apr 10, 2012 9:04 pm

Been there today for my first ride and it was amazing.

Loved the actors and their attitude (apart from screaming at little girls)

First lift was effective and explained.

The chamber was brilliant the egg was massive! The drop toke a while before it dropped so I was in far waiting for it. The bottom I didn't see that well and I didn't feel the back poker and I only felt the leg touches. Down side was that no one knew where to go to exit until a actor came in and shown us the way. But I guess you can count that as a good as it leaves u in fear

The 2nd lift was terrifying to be honest. The jolts and the drop into darkness and the monster screaming added it all up


Theming: 8
Acting: 10
Experience: 10
Overall rating: 9

I would go on it again. :D well done Alton towers
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