UK theme parks from another point of view!

 
Blaze

Re: The Smiler - Speculation

Wed Apr 18, 2012 4:43 pm

It doesn't have to be completely accurate...but they can't lie.

They've gone into a fair bit of detail and shown the visual impact that design will have outside the park. So they have to build it like that. All coasters have to be assessed on how visible they will be outside the park, so Alton have to show a realistic layout to show what parts of the ride will be visible and how clearly. The ride was passed because the planners felt the submitted plans have an acceptable impact.
 
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Queenmaya99
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Re: The Smiler - Speculation

Wed Apr 18, 2012 5:12 pm

I..somehow came into discussion about SW7 with someone at school, and they told me "yh i think its gonna be a station at da bottem of the oblivion drop and its gonna be like oblivion but backwards!!"
I ran away laughing.
______  ___                     
___   |/  /_____ _____  _______ _
__  /|_/ /_  __ `/_  / / /  __ `/
_  /  / / / /_/ /_  /_/ // /_/ /
/_/  /_/  \__,_/ _\__, / \__,_/ 
                 /____/

Image
 
Dormiens-Dave

Re: The Smiler - Speculation

Wed Apr 18, 2012 11:45 pm

Blaze wrote:
It doesn't have to be completely accurate...but they can't lie.

They've gone into a fair bit of detail and shown the visual impact that design will have outside the park. So they have to build it like that. All coasters have to be assessed on how visible they will be outside the park, so Alton have to show a realistic layout to show what parts of the ride will be visible and how clearly. The ride was passed because the planners felt the submitted plans have an acceptable impact.


I would agree with you if it wasn't for three letters...

G. D. O

That makes me question the need to accurate coaster representation, after-all they built spinball with no permission at all.
 
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Re: The Smiler - Speculation

Wed Apr 18, 2012 11:47 pm

Dormiens-Dave wrote:
after-all they built spinball with no permission at all.


...and look how much of a mess that turned out to be.
 
Vladimir Bobinski
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Re: The Smiler - Speculation

Wed Apr 18, 2012 11:52 pm

Ryan. wrote:
-Prometheus- wrote:
I honestly can't see them changing the layout for anything other than minor tweaks to do with the engineering aspects, what we see on the plans is what we're getting I reckon. 


My thoughts exactly. I don't think misleading the planning office and the local residents is in Alton Towers' best interests, the last thing they want to do is give the locals reason to question the legitimacy of their planning applications, especially when said locals have already objected to the original layout on the grounds of visibility


Completely agreed.  The design layout won't change.  Of course it doesn't show you what certain elements are.  I'm expecting Takabisha style ride, even though I'm not completely sold on the manufacturer.

Planning laws are quite strict.  You can't put a plan to build a conservatory in then decide, actually I want to build a 2 floor extension.  The same principle applies.

I'd love them to repaint Rita a dark green colour to suit the dark forest but even something as simple as changing colour of a structure requires planning permission.  This is why every single exact colour and material used is defined for structure and fencing, is in the plan.
Last edited by Vladimir Bobinski on Wed Apr 18, 2012 11:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
Dormiens-Dave

Re: The Smiler - Speculation

Wed Apr 18, 2012 11:54 pm

CoasterCrazyChris wrote:
Dormiens-Dave wrote:
after-all they built spinball with no permission at all.


...and look how much of a mess that turned out to be.


err well sure but that doesn't actually stop the planning issue, i'm sure Staffordshire Moorlands Council Planning Department don't have a roller coaster quality commission.

:D
 
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The Psychoaster
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Re: The Smiler - Speculation

Thu Apr 19, 2012 12:36 am

Dormiens-Dave wrote:
CoasterCrazyChris wrote:
Dormiens-Dave wrote:
after-all they built spinball with no permission at all.


...and look how much of a mess that turned out to be.


err well sure but that doesn't actually stop the planning issue, i'm sure Staffordshire Moorlands Council Planning Department don't have a roller coaster quality commission.

:D


Almost a certainty given their approval of Th13teen  :P
 
sibic
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Re: The Smiler - Speculation

Thu Apr 19, 2012 3:49 am

alton will not change the layout (other then for engineering reasons)

A. why do all that work and then change the whole thing. (the track should be the same as for off park visibility).
B. when have they every done that .
C. it looks a good ride so why do you want it changed.


worlds first. First of a kind new model from gerst.(as the track is different)
 
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Re: The Smiler - Speculation

Thu Apr 19, 2012 8:10 am

sibic wrote:
worlds first. First of a kind new model from gerst.(as the track is different)

They can't really use that in their marketing though, can they?

Come to Alton Towers to ride .................. that boasts never-before-seen world first track!
:P
 
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Nemesis94
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Re: The Smiler - Speculation

Thu Apr 19, 2012 8:43 am

Dormiens-Dave wrote:
I would agree with you if it wasn't for three letters...

G. D. O

That makes me question the need to accurate coaster representation, after-all they built spinball with no permission at all.


But I think there in lies the difference, the plans for Spinball were ever made public so nobody could raise any issues about it. SW7's have, and I don't think local residents or the planning department would be that impressed if Alton Towers said 'here's what the ride is going to look like' and then built something completely different (even if it doesn't need permission). If the ride was to be completely different I would have also expected something in the planning documents that stated that as a disclaimer.
See my No Limits recreation of SW7 (filmed by JAMMYD777) at
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SOFUNyo-MKY
 
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Nemesis94
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Re: The Smiler - Speculation

Thu Apr 19, 2012 9:00 am

Don't get me wrong by the way, the ride track will definitely change. If you look at the revised planning documents you will notice that the S bend I mentioned before cuts through the new theming elements. So either they are in the wrong place, or more likely, they were done to fit the latest drawings. See below:
Image

Boz wrote:
interesting thought, i have been looking at the clearances on my recreation, and they don't work. under the spiders legs and track crossovers at a couple of points, have at best 2.5m between the rails and obstructions.


I actually only found one instance where the clearances were too tight, and that was on the same peice of track above, where it crosses those other two sections of track. I had modify them slightly so they actually fitted my No Limits model.

There is another instance where the plans are a little "off" shall we say. If you look at the lower track within the first batwing element (between inversions 3 & 4) it is only 1.5m above ground level. So unless everyone has to duck to go underneath it, I expect some changes there. In my model I actually lowered the path so that you could get under it, the actual ride might have the whole element raised. We'll have to wait till construction starts to find out which.

Boz wrote:
BTW Nemesis 94 your recreation is fantastic, and mine is in no way suppose to steal your thunder ;)


Don't worry, I actually thought I was stealing yours :lol: I guessed you were working on a complete sketchup model based on the plans, that's why I didn't go into the same level as detail as I know you do. My buildings and structures where quick mock ups to the correct dimensions so that it looked right from SW7. I also concentrated on it being a No Limits model (as I've found sketchup and No Limits don't particular work well together - lots of shadow and texture issues). I also had a time limit to work to, and all my 3D stuff was done within 3 weeks. Not that I need have bothered, Mass Effect 3's ending was ~#@"^£&%!!!!!
See my No Limits recreation of SW7 (filmed by JAMMYD777) at
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SOFUNyo-MKY
 
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Boz
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Re: The Smiler - Speculation

Thu Apr 19, 2012 10:06 am

Nemesis94 wrote:
Boz wrote:
interesting thought, i have been looking at the clearances on my recreation, and they don't work. under the spiders legs and track crossovers at a couple of points, have at best 2.5m between the rails and obstructions.


I actually only found one instance where the clearances were too tight, and that was on the same peice of track above, where it crosses those other two sections of track. I had modify them slightly so they actually fitted my No Limits model.

There is another instance where the plans are a little "off" shall we say. If you look at the lower track within the first batwing element (between inversions 3 & 4) it is only 1.5m above ground level. So unless everyone has to duck to go underneath it, I expect some changes there. In my model I actually lowered the path so that you could get under it, the actual ride might have the whole element raised. We'll have to wait till construction starts to find out which.


indeed that's exactly what i found as well, i have also had to drop the pathway under the base of the batwing. however the proposed landscaping is indicative at best, the land cut outs which will have to occur at the east end of the site are purely drawn on, owing to some very speculative sculpting on my part. i am assuming that the same thing will happen under that element.

however the layout may definitely change, (as much as i don't want it to) to resolve the issue with the crossover/theming clearances, or we could be seeing our first hint at a worlds first, ultra low profile car.

also it might be worth mentioning that although the layout was created in no limits, that doesn't mean it was done by merlin studios. Gerstlauer specifically commissioned no limits to create their eurofighter style, so they could produce concept designs for their clients, the same thing may have happened here.

EDIT: corrected "quote fail"  :oops: (thanks Dingerbell)
Last edited by Boz on Thu Apr 19, 2012 10:26 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
Dingerbell

Re: The Smiler - Speculation

Thu Apr 19, 2012 10:14 am

^BTW quote fail :)

Boz wrote:
however the layout may definitely change, (as much as i don't want it to) to resolve the issue with the crossover/theming clearances, or we could be seeing our first hint at a worlds first, ultra low profile car.


As well as (as it looks in the plans) a different track. This should make the ride smoother, and also having a higher throughput (as wanted by Merlin). This new track may also allow for a world's first that can't be achieved on any other track style? Who really knows; although I do believe this will be a whole new concept idea from Gerstlauer.
 
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Re: The Smiler - Speculation

Thu Apr 19, 2012 11:11 am

It'd be rather amazing if all the plans were mostly a red herring, when it comes down to the layout anyway.

Truly a SECRET weapon.
 
Dormiens-Dave

Re: The Smiler - Speculation

Thu Apr 19, 2012 11:29 am

Dingerbell wrote:

As well as (as it looks in the plans) a different track. This should make the ride smoother, and also having a higher throughput (as wanted by Merlin). This new track may also allow for a world's first that can't be achieved on any other track style? Who really knows; although I do believe this will be a whole new concept idea from Gerstlauer.

sibic wrote:
alton will not change the layout (other then for engineering reasons)

A. why do all that work and then change the whole thing. (the track should be the same as for off park visibility).
B. when have they every done that .
C. it looks a good ride so why do you want it changed.


worlds first. First of a kind new model from gerst.(as the track is different)


Point one we know the track depicted is not how it will look because thats an error with No-Limits track 3DS software as Jarad pointed out a few months back, when you export Gerst track in NL it comes out like the plans.

And as for Sibics questions

A) Plans are on NoLimits, not a great amount of work really.
B) Saw's track was changed from the origional plans and Th13teen theming changed a lot.
c) It wont change dramatically but it helps destract enthusiasts as well as keeping things secret from the industry.

IF and its a big IF they where going for the inversion record, its not exactly a hard record to beat. Unlike other worlds firsts such as Flyers or Trick Track nearly all manufacturers can offer a high inversion count. If Towers announce early on a high inversion count on their roller coaster lots of other parks could easily try and beat them to it where-as if its kept secret Towers would at least have the title for a season.

This is wild speculation that probably wont happen but there are a few discrepancies in these plans leading me to wonder what is actually going on.
 
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Boz
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Re: The Smiler - Speculation

Thu Apr 19, 2012 11:50 am

Dormiens-Dave wrote:
This is wild speculation that probably wont happen but there are a few discrepancies in these plans leading me to wonder what is actually going on.


my thoughts exactly :?
the plans, even the revised ones, seem very hastily thrown together, without any thought for accuracy.
 
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Ryan.
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Re: The Smiler - Speculation

Thu Apr 19, 2012 4:12 pm

Boz wrote:
Dormiens-Dave wrote:
This is wild speculation that probably wont happen but there are a few discrepancies in these plans leading me to wonder what is actually going on.


my thoughts exactly :?
the plans, even the revised ones, seem very hastily thrown together, without any thought for accuracy.


If it is true that the ride track didn't even need to be included in the application because it's within the GDO then I guess they wouldn't really need to make it particularly accurate, but then I don't understand why they would bother submitting the plans for it at all?

They could have saved themselves the hassle of including it in the planning application, making superimposed images and winding up the locals. They could also have kept the ride a secret.

I can't help thinking there must have been a requirement for them to produce plans for the track, otherwise why would the visibility of the track from outside the park be getting considered in the application?
 
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Re: The Smiler - Speculation

Thu Apr 19, 2012 5:21 pm

Bear in mind that with regards to the visibility there's nothing to say that those elements won't change. Provided it is no more visible than the imposed images then I don't think it would pose an issues, and if it is less visible then who is going to complain? "Oh your ride is less inytusive than we thought! Make it bigger so it's more noticeable!" :P

For all we know anything below the height the track is visible from outside the area could vary and not make any difference from the outside.
Image
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Re: The Smiler - Speculation

Thu Apr 19, 2012 5:48 pm

The planning document stated that Alton declared the track layout, as an act of 'nicety' to the council and residents, to give them a clue as to why this particular structure was required (station building and theming elements).

Now, legally, Alton have given the plans of the track to benefit them, as to give representation as to why the theming elements are there. Legally this 'could' have effected the planning application for the station and themeing elements, such that the council were more likely to give permission.

I would expect, the track plans are not exact, but approximations of what Alton want from the coaster. These plans will then be sent to Gerstlauer who will finalise track specifications and do the appropriate load testing etc. of the coaster. Before providing Alton with their final version of the plans.

I would expect the theming elements we have seen on the plans will be in their exact locations on the final design.


To those who are questioning whether Alton may be going for a world record inversion coaster here. It doesn't seem very 'them'. But they could well be going for it. I would expect they could fit at least 2 in the station building if they really wanted to!
 
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Re: The Smiler - Speculation

Thu Apr 19, 2012 5:49 pm

2013......13 inversions?

Just a thought.

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