JayJay90 wrote:

arE Y0u R3AdY t0 Sm1Le? wrote:

Can i just ask somthing

what's the evil side to there plan to make people smile.
I know the track is messed up but i just mean in the story line,
as all i am getting at the moment is that this 'doctor' wants to make you SMILE seems kind of nice to me aha
it may be against your will let you are still being made to smile, it not like there killing you!
is it that there using you as slaves or something?
can someone please explain thanks in advance!! :-)

Because its like psychological effects dr Kelman used (marmalising) and if you did not obey and you didn't accept marmalisation then you'd have 'forced marmalisation' where they wire a smile on your face min the sanctuary they had X-rays of the skull and their jaws all wired up and cheeks pulled back. Dr Kelmans hospital or whatever it was was closed down and people in the health/nursing profession didn't agree with his experiments as he used live humans to work on

An evil side to making people smile. As you say, it's normally nice to make people smile. Let's suppose they themed the ride around a sad face and being glum. The name "The Glummer" sounds more like a £1 bathroom adhesive that JML would release. (The adhesive is £1, not the bathroom.)

Also I suppose (in addition to Kelman's "smile, smile or 4 King's Smile" philosophy), there's a nifty little juxtaposition there about evil to promote happiness.

A note to the boss of the forum: I'm sorry.

SonicChips wrote:

JayJay90 wrote:

arE Y0u R3AdY t0 Sm1Le? wrote:

Can i just ask somthing

what's the evil side to there plan to make people smile.
I know the track is messed up but i just mean in the story line,
as all i am getting at the moment is that this 'doctor' wants to make you SMILE seems kind of nice to me aha
it may be against your will let you are still being made to smile, it not like there killing you!
is it that there using you as slaves or something?
can someone please explain thanks in advance!! :-)

Because its like psychological effects dr Kelman used (marmalising) and if you did not obey and you didn't accept marmalisation then you'd have 'forced marmalisation' where they wire a smile on your face min the sanctuary they had X-rays of the skull and their jaws all wired up and cheeks pulled back. Dr Kelmans hospital or whatever it was was closed down and people in the health/nursing profession didn't agree with his experiments as he used live humans to work on

An evil side to making people smile. As you say, it's normally nice to make people smile. Let's suppose they themed the ride around a sad face and being glum. The name "The Glummer" sounds more like a £1 bathroom adhesive that JML would release. (The adhesive is £1, not the bathroom.)

Also I suppose (in addition to Kelman's "smile, smile or 4 King's Smile" philosophy), there's a nifty little juxtaposition there about evil to promote happiness.

A note to the boss of the forum: I'm sorry.

i think his idea is that when your smiling your naturally happy, his experiments went abit out of control causing his advocates to become schizophrenic? hence the psychotic laughter etc. thats what i gather anyway, when people are overly happy, it tends to go into the realms of being quite sadistic, i.e clowns and such

bbooth2 wrote:

SonicChips wrote:

JayJay90 wrote:

arE Y0u R3AdY t0 Sm1Le? wrote:

Can i just ask somthing

what's the evil side to there plan to make people smile.
I know the track is messed up but i just mean in the story line,
as all i am getting at the moment is that this 'doctor' wants to make you SMILE seems kind of nice to me aha
it may be against your will let you are still being made to smile, it not like there killing you!
is it that there using you as slaves or something?
can someone please explain thanks in advance!! :-)

Because its like psychological effects dr Kelman used (marmalising) and if you did not obey and you didn't accept marmalisation then you'd have 'forced marmalisation' where they wire a smile on your face min the sanctuary they had X-rays of the skull and their jaws all wired up and cheeks pulled back. Dr Kelmans hospital or whatever it was was closed down and people in the health/nursing profession didn't agree with his experiments as he used live humans to work on

An evil side to making people smile. As you say, it's normally nice to make people smile. Let's suppose they themed the ride around a sad face and being glum. The name "The Glummer" sounds more like a £1 bathroom adhesive that JML would release. (The adhesive is £1, not the bathroom.)

Also I suppose (in addition to Kelman's "smile, smile or 4 King's Smile" philosophy), there's a nifty little juxtaposition there about evil to promote happiness.

A note to the boss of the forum: I'm sorry.

i think his idea is that when your smiling your naturally happy, his experiments went abit out of control causing his advocates to become schizophrenic? hence the psychotic laughter etc. thats what i gather anyway, when people are overly happy, it tends to go into the realms of being quite sadistic, i.e clowns and such

lol Ben getting his Spec on

From what I can ascertain, the Sanctuary (I have not manged to go on it and I cannot find a lore of it anywhere so I am working on what various people have said on the the forums) is based in the 1950s and in it the Dr Kelman is portrayed as quite an old man. If this is true then could it be that in the canon of The Smiler, The doctor is deceased or Retired as the person in charge of the Ministry of Joy. If this could be the case it could open up a new branch to the storyline:

Here is my imagining of the storyline if the above is true:
- 1950s, The MoJ is set up by Dr Kelman, it uses the Towers as a base of operations (the sanctuary) to conduct various experiments trying to induce a smile on various people. During this time The five stages of Marmalisation are drawn up, it is the ultimate way to permanently alter peoples general demeanor.

- a couple of years later Dr Kelmans techniques are shunned and The sanctuary is closed down. However the MoJ survive, trying to work out new techniques of bringing happiness to the masses. During this time the MoJ manages to secure the generating of funds from outside the government and goes rouge, now independent of government they generate new plans to roll out in the future.

-1990s, Alton towers decides to become a world class theme park and starts to invest in new rides and roller coasters, The Moj start to take an interest in the park as a potential place to conduct tests on the unknowing public.

-1991, An engineer is drafted into the MoJ to help alter the designs of the rides to allow them to do tests on the public (without them knowing)

-1992/3, The construction of Nemesis begins, though it appears like a normal coaster, parts of it are fundamentally changed to allow the secret monitoring of guests to gauge hormonal reflexes in humans to induce happiness and euphoria.

-1997, Construction of Oblivion and X sector begins, The MoJ help fund it as they hope to focus on this area of the park as their main area of testing.
Oblivion's main aim is to observe the ability of people to ingest vapors whilst traveling at speed (a prelude to the Giggler) the misters at the mouth of the tunnel are designed to spray water, or chemicals. Riders are monitored getting on and off to try and determine the effectiveness of the sprays.

-The engineer that was drafted in is taken by Dr Kelman's theories and completely believes that the Doctor is correct, He also manages to work his way up to be second in charge of the MoJ.

-early 2000s, Dr Kelman Retires/Dies Allowing the Engineer to take control of the MoJ. He knows about the Marmalisation Process and begins to design a new delivery system which will be able to Marmalise entire towns or Cities. His motivation is dubious as, unlike Dr Kelman, he is not doing it for scientific advancement nor does it seem that he wishes to improve the well-being of other people. It is believed that the Engineer has seen this as a means to an end of a problem, but his personality is too chaotic for anyone to see his true vision.

-2000s, Alton towers continues to build new rides, The MoJ still does tests on the oblivious riders, however the tests aren't as intensive as on previous rides.

-2010, The Engineer finally comes up with a workable delivery system for the Marmalisation Process, the result is a Pentapod (five legged) vehicle with the different stages on each of its legs, it is called the Marmaliser.

-2012; it is decided to test a Marmaliser before rolling them out all over the world. It is decided to do the test at Alton towers, the selected Marmaliser would be altered to interact with the GP as part of a ride, changes to the design include: the removal of several, dart firing, turrets which help deliver the inoculation (as they are seen as too dangerous for a theme park) and The Tickler is changed to be in a fixed position rather than on extending arms.

-2013; The Smiler is opened, it is a full throttle thrill roller coaster which attracts crowds of people from all over the world. Testing of the Marmaliser begins.

There would be many ways to imply this storyline throughout the queue line, for example if Dr Kelman is dead then part of the queue could go through a small memorial garden which a plaque to 'the late Dr Kelman'. Also inside the station/ around the queue you could have per-recorded messages, the first few from Dr Kelman and then to mark his passing a announcement by the engineer, introducing himself and doing a small speech for the Late doctor. The recordings for the engineer (could be potentially voiced by JW as part of a legacy for his last ride) would be written to show that he is logical but morally dubious, this would be shown by a general disregard for the safety and feelings of riders occasionally shouting at people over the intercom but despite the shouting, he would have a strangely jovial attitude.

This is amazing! thanks so much for going into so much detail about it! I really appreciate it
Thanks again! 

Just a thought concerning the fins/magnets/whatever on the vertical lift. What if the train doesnt stop at the bottom of the lift but continues full speed out of the last inversion before the lift, goes straight up the lift and free falls back down where the fins slow it down, chain will then pick it up and take it to the top to continue

Obviously this prob wont happen as the incline at the bottom of the lift is most likely at an acute angle for this to happen... but hey, speculation.

icecream88 wrote:

Just a thought concerning the fins/magnets/whatever on the vertical lift. What if the train doesnt stop at the bottom of the lift but continues full speed out of the last inversion before the lift, goes straight up the lift and free falls back down where the fins slow it down, chain will then pick it up and take it to the top to continue

Obviously this prob wont happen as the incline at the bottom of the lift is most likely at an acute angle for this to happen... but hey, speculation.

i like your thinking, but like you say the bottom of the lift would be to tight and i can imagine you would be entering the bottom of the lift at quite a pace, would be painful to say the least

From what Kingda dude said while the story's good I think The Smiler Storyline should be kept to The X Sector otherwise you might aswell start calling the place MOJ Land and also Nemmy is based on an Alien attacking Earth and not of the MOJ conducting experiments. I would just think that the X Sector is the MOJ area not anywhere else.

What I was trying to imply is that they have been in the towers all along, they have had influences over all the rides, each one secretly monitoring the riders. Oblivion and X sector is an area which the MoJ mostly focus on experimentation. However it doesn't stop them from observing and collecting data from all other rides in the park. The MoJ isn't just limited to a small themed area, it is a whole park-wide Conspirosy.

As stated in my above post:
For Nemesis I tried to state that it is a normal roller coaster but it has passive monitoring equipment (intergrated by MoJ) to gain biological information on the riders.
As opposed to Oblivion, which it is designed as a direct experiment to test sort term exposure to different chemical vapors (resulting in an effective giggler).

To clarify:
X-sector - Experiments, Heavy MoJ influence
Rest of the Park - Data collection, Minimal MoJ influence

The Idea is to break the 4th Wall, its nice to have the theming in a park but even if you had the best props and animatronics in the world there is still the underlying fact that it is just theming. The Idea of my story is that it refers to rides in the context of rides, not aliens or forbidden forests. It refers to everything in the context of reality, essentially a double bluff which results in the lines between the story and reality to become a blur. The result is that people getting off the ride will find it unclear whether or not all that they have been told is true or false.

The trick is to make not just a story but a conspiracy.

I would also like to make it clear that I don't want everything to be "MoJ Land" as you say. Subtlety and Paranoia is the key to it all.

Ahhhh I see, so is that why you see the logo creeping up in places like the sub terra tank? seeing thing like that are ok if they are small and only a few of them. it ties the areas into one another no keeping them as separte block placed next to one another but I wonder why they dont do it with other rides! for example a nemesies tentical somewere and i th13teen warning somewhere ect...
but when the ride is old all this themeing will be uneeded. ( I hope they go over some of the newley added themeing and put it back to the orginal ) It would be good if all ( even the normal ) CCTV cameras around the park were like the smilers ones, ( like in the game or whatever they put on the ride ) it would bee minimal themeing but cool!

yeah, the occasional CCTV Camera around the park would be good. Maybe a couple in each area? Very subtle, not like in-your-face obvious, but still find-able.
It might lead into a competition! 'Find all the MOJ cameras around the park and win xxxxxxx!'
Not likely to happen but it's a good idea don't you think?

Buschgardensfan wrote:

yeah, the occasional CCTV Camera around the park would be good. Maybe a couple in each area? Very subtle, not like in-your-face obvious, but still find-able.
It might lead into a competition! 'Find all the MOJ cameras around the park and win xxxxxxx!'
Not likely to happen but it's a good idea don't you think?

Perfect haha loads of suttel camera so you know there watch haha like some in the trees in the paths as you walk to other sections haha maybe motion censors to follow you! ;-)

I do like the theory and the long story of how it fits in with the park but you need to remember, as stated, that MOJ is JUST x-sector. Its story lies in that area of the park under xsectors theme. Alton Towers is a theme park with different areas that hold different stories or themes. They don't cross over.

For instance you say MOJ inspect and data collect from how people are on other rides such as Nemesis? Nemesis is its own story, you're essentially riding the alien or escaping from it, (one or the other, ive forgot lol)...whereas in reality, you're just sat in a train running along a rail lol...

MOJ however, have built an experiment, they've purposely built a coaster as part of their experiments to make you smile, the twists, the turns, the inversions, the speed, the lifts, the near misses, the dueling, the marmaliser and its 5 arms are all there as part of the experiment. Essentially, in the land of make believe at towers, if they were to head over to the forbidden valley they'd be met by an alien feeding deep beneath the earth and Phallax testing the egg, they wouldn't see what is reality, a simulated maze with a tower drop and an inverted B&M coaster...

explained that as best i could

Also,in respect to seeing The Smiler face all over the park, that is nothing more than marketing! It was to get people seeing it and wondering what it was, to see that all around the park in strange places would (and did) get people talking...same can be said for all the landmarks around London it was projected at and in the tanks at sealife centres around the UK.

Essentially the story of The Smiler begins with Dr. Kelman and The Sanctuary. He explained that The Sanctuary had been closed down because health professionals did not agree with his work because he experimented on the living. Although they got closed down, he continued to experiment in secret....with some accidents along the way. They then set up in xsector and started building their new experiment, The Smiler which will marmalise its patients.

Sorry for the long post

I am simply speculating about a possible style of storyline that could potentially be used in the smiler, using my example to try and explain how, by breaking the 4th wall at Alton towers and implying a deep and long lasting connection between the Towers as a theme park and The Ministry of Joy could make a strangely more immersive story than could ever be achieved with just theming alone. The smiler is the perfect candidate for this 4th wall style story, as both are designed to mess with your mind, confuse you and instill paranoia. The story is made as if to project its own fiction on reality itself.

There doesn't need to be cameras all over the park. All it needs is some brief, almost Easter Egg like, mention of (either audibly or visually) other rides in the parks being used for data collection. As I have said before this whole technique revolves around subtlety and the fact that if a ride is mentioned it is referenced as a ride.

In essence, I think it should refer to itself as a official experiment designed to look like a rollercoaster which is in turn designed to look like an experiment. The result is that the story is so convoluted that it is virtually impossible to say whether or not it is true. The fact that it is themed around an experiment and peoples natural paranoia and willingness to create/believe conspiracies could result in a powerful debate among visitors over whether or not they are about to willingly volunteer for an experiment or just enjoying a ride.

For those who don't know; the forth wall is broken, for example, when a Fictional TV show refers to itself as a Fictional TV show during a section of dialogue in one of its shows or it tries to converse with the viewers through the camera (commonly used on kids TV shows). Used well it can be a powerful technique.

Finally I want to say, this ride is going to be like having a psychology book thrown at you; it will play with all your primal instincts, it will try and get you to fear it, it will mess with your mind.

I'd rather the Forbidden Valley was kept separate from the MoJ thing.

Suspension of Disbelief is awesome and fun. I want to walk into the FV and get invested in the story of The Apocalypse. I don't want to enter the zone and be like "in the story is that all this rust and stuff is fake and is engineered by the MoJ". That actually damages my enjoyment of that zone.

Keep MoJ in X Sector and any generically themed parts of the park. I want the Forbidden Forest to keep its super natural charm too.

I think if every aspect of AT was a venture of the MoJ, then AT loses its Theme Park quality, and just turns into an Amusement Park themed to be ran by the Ministry of Joy. There would be no point in having themed areas because the MoJ would just override it.

I like your speculation of the relationship between the MoJ and AT. Just keep it to X Sector, and if you have to, Generic areas.

I don't know if this has been talked about before or I put it in the wrong topic section but as the ride got 2 lift hills do you think there will be 2 cars on the track at the same time or maybe 4 when the first 2 have nearly finished the course another 2 will be let go as I guess in the station area they will load 2 cars at a time. 

Themeparksandy1981 wrote:

I don't know if this has been talked about before or I put it in the wrong topic section but as the ride got 2 lift hills do you think there will be 2 cars on the track at the same time or maybe 4 when the first 2 have nearly finished the course another 2 will be let go as I guess in the station area they will load 2 cars at a time.

I think there will be
2 on staffy knot
1 on the 2nd lift break run
And 1 just leaving the station

kingda dude wrote:

Finally I want to say, this ride is going to be like having a psychology book thrown at you; it will play with all your primal instincts, it will try and get you to fear it, it will mess with your mind.

Yes, I see what you're saying but I think that including the whole park would really ruin the themes of the other areas. Imagine getting to Nemesis and them being like "LOL you were all fooled, this aint an alien, its actually an under cover experiment from the MOJ, its just a coaster". Each part of the park is a different area, a different theme and IMO, should be kept seperate.

Also in terms of a psychology book thrown at you, thats a huge diverse subject, all we have seen at the moment is a few optical illusions. We can also see that they have researched elements of distraction to then make something more feared. Theyve done this using the marmaliser. Each leg will do something to distract your attention away from the next element for a split second thus giving you no time to prepare for whats to come next and when your faced with it its [meant to be] scarier! I guess there are many other little tricks within psychology they can use but theyre not going to over do it so much it messes with your mind, otherwise youll have to be sat down and debriefed after on what happened etc.

scw55 wrote:

I'd rather the Forbidden Valley was kept separate from the MoJ thing.

Suspension of Disbelief is awesome and fun. I want to walk into the FV and get invested in the story of The Apocalypse. I don't want to enter the zone and be like "in the story is that all this rust and stuff is fake and is engineered by the MoJ". That actually damages my enjoyment of that zone.

Keep MoJ in X Sector and any generically themed parts of the park. I want the Forbidden Forest to keep its super natural charm too.

I think if every aspect of AT was a venture of the MoJ, then AT loses its Theme Park quality, and just turns into an Amusement Park themed to be ran by the Ministry of Joy. There would be no point in having themed areas because the MoJ would just override it.

I like your speculation of the relationship between the MoJ and AT. Just keep it to X Sector, and if you have to, Generic areas.

completely agree with this post, it really would damage the reputation of other areas.

Bit off topic compared to the recent discussions but while look through the th13teen speculation post ( very funny seeing people getting excited for an extreme coaster when it turns out to be th13teen aha . ;-) )

But as this was thought at one time to be the th13teen SE do you think it could The Smiler's? http://m.youtube.com/#/watch?v=iKgxMGzZ ... KgxMGzZWc4
As its all twisted and twirled and spinning ( great adverbs there! Aha.) it's looks like something the smiler would have as its fits in with theme theme. Hypnotic and werid aha.  And it does not take up kuch space at all So what do you think?

(Slow posting today :-/ are we all watching the great Iron Lady's funeral, I am. RIP :-) and any one on park but I guess we're all at work... Go sick days!!! )

EDIT: also posted on the smiler construction part 2. Please delete of there if you wish )

I hope the marmaliser works well with distraction.

Real life 'examples' are coasters with impressive elements (inversions/drops) hidden from sight from the rider by trees/theming. Then, when the element can be seen, the train is about to enter it. Giving a brief sensation of "whaaaa!" as your brain notices what's about to happen.

Perhaps the smilier will be the polar opposite of Oblivion in that regard.
Oblivion wants you to notice the great steep drop into the pit. The Smiler wants you to not see the horrifying set of inversions.

On the No Limits recreation which was created, there's a quite nice "Colossus" section to the layout. It's after the second lift-hill. The track rises and then drops underneath a marmaliser leg. However, your brain thinks you're on a projectory course with the leg and you're about to smash into it; like Colossus' brick wall. I think, this coaster will use layout and interactive aspects to create as many 'panic moments' as possible where you think you'll collide, or get surprised at what the track will do next. I think having a second train wizzing around the layout with you and quite close will be quite a presence. I eagerly look forwards to the irl PoV videos.