UK theme parks from another point of view!

 
RobJackson85
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Re: The Smiler - Speculation

Wed May 01, 2013 6:16 pm

sw7nutter wrote:
RobJackson85 wrote:
andzdrew wrote:
All of which logically can only point to one thing: deliberate rolling back on the 1st hill and a freefall on the vertical, it's the only logical reason the fins are there in my mind


But it doesn't. Please explain your reasonings to why you think this.

You yourself have said that chain lifts can not roll down, yet you are saying that they will!?

Hes saying that if it was a safety system it couldn't rollback because of the chain. However if it was to rollback on purpose the chain would disengage so it could.


I see, I thought it was along those lines, to be fair, I'm not arguing with anyone, just trying to get my head around there points and views.

kingda dude wrote:
With The Smiler I believe that the ratchet is attached to the lower sprocket, this prevents the chain between the train and sprocket from falling back if it was to snap. This, however, doesn't mean that train can safely reverse down the lift as the chain in front of the car will be pulled out, by its own weight, and pile up at the bottom next to the motor (and potentially over the track) preventing it from operating. As the train can only reverse down the hill if the motor is turning, which it can't do, then in the case of the chain snapping the magnetic brakes would be:
COMPLETELY USELESS

and so I will say again:
IN THE EVENT OF AN EMERGENCY THE TRAIN CANNOT REVERSE DOWN THE [CHAIN] LIFT HILL, CONTROLLED OR UNCONTROLLED.


Just to aid in my wanting to understand the other side, kingda dude, you have provided a good explanation in your previous post, as with your post about the lift where you shared the diagram with the yellow dogs/ratchet system.

From the quote above though, are you saying that if there was a chain snap, the weight of the car would be taken by the lowest motor and it would basically be the chain holding the car in the vertical position?
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Andzdrew
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Re: The Smiler - Speculation

Wed May 01, 2013 6:44 pm

I'll attempt to explain that one...  The chain is encased in a trough so if pushed down (conpressed) that force is taken right down the chain to the lower cog which is ratcheted.
In other words the chain is held stiff upright and even if the chain were to snap, the lower part of the chain would not fall back down, and so neither would the train...

This is exactly how the ratchet system works on eurofighters like saw.

What it means is it's a simple matter of unhooking the train from the dog and the train freefalls, hence the need for the fins, they wpuldnt be needed and wouldn't be allowed to use them in an emergency, so it's logical that Alton have planned for and designed a freefall, which happens to be a world first too, and seeing as we're all coming up short for what the world's first might be, I'm seriously considering this as one of them
 
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Astro61201
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Re: The Smiler - Speculation

Wed May 01, 2013 7:18 pm

with regards to the 'washing machine' is it possible that they bolted a cylinder around the straight piece of track in the tunnel after the track was covered up.
then is it possible that they put rollers around the cylinder attached to motors that made the track spin along with the cylinder?
is it possible?
Sorry first post :(
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Re: The Smiler - Speculation

Wed May 01, 2013 7:39 pm

Astro61201 wrote:
with regards to the 'washing machine' is it possible that they bolted a cylinder around the straight piece of track in the tunnel after the track was covered up.
then is it possible that they put rollers around the cylinder attached to motors that made the track spin along with the cylinder?
is it possible?
Sorry first post :(

Regards to this we have some confirmation of a 3d projection that will give a disorientating effect, possibly the illusion of a rotating tunnel
 
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kingda dude
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Re: The Smiler - Speculation

Wed May 01, 2013 7:48 pm

To go with my explanations:
If the ratchet is now on the lower sprocket, it can be disengaged easily to allow the car to free fall down the lift (whilst still attached to the chain) for the event of a deliberate free-fall drop. I would speculate that between the motor and the drive sprocket is an industrial clutch, by releasing the clutch, and the ratchet, the car will drop backwards (with the chain), be slowed by the magnetic brakes and stop on the pinch brakes at the bottom of the vertical section of the lift. As the car and chain dog are still connected, the clutch can re engage very quickly and the car can continue up the lift hill as normal.

My guess is that the fins have increased copper content as they get closer to the bottom, resulting in an exponential increase in brake power as the car drops backwards.
In total the whole process would add between 10 and 30 seconds (including time to re-ascend the lift) onto a journey as the height of the drop could change to allow accurate timing of the cars.

I don't think that the free-fall lift drop will be the 'worlds first' or 'secret element'  ;) but I think that it quite certainly will be a feature of the ride.
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Re: The Smiler - Speculation

Wed May 01, 2013 7:55 pm

kingda dude wrote:
To go with my explanations:
If the ratchet is now on the lower sprocket, it can be disengaged easily to allow the car to free fall down the lift (whilst still attached to the chain) for the event of a deliberate free-fall drop. I would speculate that between the motor and the drive sprocket is an industrial clutch, by releasing the clutch, and the ratchet, the car will drop backwards (with the chain), be slowed by the magnetic brakes and stop on the pinch brakes at the bottom of the vertical section of the lift. As the car and chain dog are still connected, the clutch can re engage very quickly and the car can continue up the lift hill as normal.

My guess is that the fins have increased copper content as they get closer to the bottom, resulting in an exponential increase in brake power as the car drops backwards.
In total the whole process would add between 10 and 30 seconds (including time to re-ascend the lift) onto a journey as the height of the drop could change to allow accurate timing of the cars.

I don't think that the free-fall lift drop will be the 'worlds first' or 'secret element'  ;) but I think that it quite certainly will be a feature of the ride.


I myself had speculated that there would be two dogs on the chain, one that was designed to drop the train before the crest, and another that would hold the train properly, this eliminates any clutch being needed, the lift would work the same as usual, train would go up and be dropped, stop at the bottom and wait for the other dog to come round, then it would go up the hill propper.
 
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kingda dude
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Re: The Smiler - Speculation

Wed May 01, 2013 8:06 pm

andzdrew wrote:
kingda dude wrote:
To go with my explanations:
If the ratchet is now on the lower sprocket, it can be disengaged easily to allow the car to free fall down the lift (whilst still attached to the chain) for the event of a deliberate free-fall drop. I would speculate that between the motor and the drive sprocket is an industrial clutch, by releasing the clutch, and the ratchet, the car will drop backwards (with the chain), be slowed by the magnetic brakes and stop on the pinch brakes at the bottom of the vertical section of the lift. As the car and chain dog are still connected, the clutch can re engage very quickly and the car can continue up the lift hill as normal.

My guess is that the fins have increased copper content as they get closer to the bottom, resulting in an exponential increase in brake power as the car drops backwards.
In total the whole process would add between 10 and 30 seconds (including time to re-ascend the lift) onto a journey as the height of the drop could change to allow accurate timing of the cars.

I don't think that the free-fall lift drop will be the 'worlds first' or 'secret element'  ;) but I think that it quite certainly will be a feature of the ride.


I myself had speculated that there would be two dogs on the chain, one that was designed to drop the train before the crest, and another that would hold the train properly, this eliminates any clutch being needed, the lift would work the same as usual, train would go up and be dropped, stop at the bottom and wait for the other dog to come round, then it would go up the hill propper.


The idea of the clutch is that it allows for variable drop height meaning that it can be used better as a system for timing the trains to duel. Also as the chain moves with the train it gives a better illusion that the chain has snapped, which is what would happen if a chain was to snap in real life and there was no safety systems in place to stop the train.
"The Marmalisation Process has been scientifically designed to ensure a sense of euphoria and satisfaction should be had by all... There are no, known, Long Term side effects to the Marmalisation process, however short term side effects may include: dizziness, vomiting, loss of balance, loss of limb control, feinting, wild hallucinations but most importantly Smiles!"
 
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bealyboy
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Re: The Smiler - Speculation

Wed May 01, 2013 8:10 pm

Has anyone noticed at about 15-19 seconds on the hypnotiser test video on the marmaliser screen there's a picture of a train car rotating with an arrow next to it, not saying its going to happen but it looked a lot like washing machine and it says disorientated next to it
SMILE.ALWAYS
 
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lewis97
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Re: The Smiler - Speculation

Wed May 01, 2013 8:11 pm

bealyboy wrote:
Has anyone noticed at about 15-19 seconds on the hypnotiser test video on the marmaliser screen there's a picture of a train car rotating with an arrow next to it, not saying its going to happen but it looked a lot like washing machine


That's to do with 'The Disorientator' which has already been quite heavily discussed, and is what brought back the 'washing machine' idea.
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Astro61201
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Re: The Smiler - Speculation

Wed May 01, 2013 8:12 pm

I think this has been said before but could it be possible to have the chain lower down lower into the chain guard away from the train. disengaging the train allowing a few seconds of freefall before a second chain dog picks the train up on the pinch brakes :P
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kingda dude
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Re: The Smiler - Speculation

Wed May 01, 2013 8:52 pm

Astro61201 wrote:
I think this has been said before but could it be possible to have the chain lower down lower into the chain guard away from the train. disengaging the train allowing a few seconds of freefall before a second chain dog picks the train up on the pinch brakes :P


The problem with the chain dipping back at a certain position up the lift is that the car would never be able to pass that position, forever climbing up to that point and dropping back leaving the riders is a seemingly perpetual free-fall limbo (its a great system for Big Grizzly Mountain Runaway Mine Cars, but not good for a ride where the train is also intended to crest the lift hill to continue the ride).

If the drop is included I would be inclined to suggest that the main mechanism to allow the train to drop is based around the motor. This is because it allows a variable drop height, but also because the time to get the train going back up the hill from the pinch brakes would be almost instantaneous (you don't have to wait for a new dog to connect as the original one is still attached). If it is controlled by the clutch, it also means that the free-fall drop can be made to be a random occurrence.
"The Marmalisation Process has been scientifically designed to ensure a sense of euphoria and satisfaction should be had by all... There are no, known, Long Term side effects to the Marmalisation process, however short term side effects may include: dizziness, vomiting, loss of balance, loss of limb control, feinting, wild hallucinations but most importantly Smiles!"
 
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Re: The Smiler - Speculation

Wed May 01, 2013 8:59 pm

I wouldn't expect them to need to adjust the timing of the trains by varying the drop on the lifthill, im still going with the 2 dogs and train falling whilst not attached to the train, this has the added safety of never disengaging the ratchet and no clutch to wear out and would be very consistent in it's use
 
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kingda dude
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Re: The Smiler - Speculation

Wed May 01, 2013 9:16 pm

andzdrew wrote:
I wouldn't expect them to need to adjust the timing of the trains by varying the drop on the lifthill, im still going with the 2 dogs and train falling whilst not attached to the train, this has the added safety of never disengaging the ratchet and no clutch to wear out and would be very consistent in it's use


I think you didn't read the bit where I said that wouldn't work. Each time the train would travel up to the dip in the chain, disengage from the chain dog and drop back to pinch brake, connect to the next chain dog and start the cycle over and over again till the end of time; never being able to crest the lift hill.
That isn't the only problem with it, Gerstlauer's chain dogs are hook shaped (as far as I know) which means the lateral movement of the chain going into the dip won't dislodge the train, but instead just break the car.

As for the wear on the clutch: When I said industrial clutch, I didn't mean one of the things you find in you 'ford focus', I was talking about the clutches you find in Large JCB's as they would be much more tolerant to the constant use of high forces for a much longer time.

Finally in terms of timing: The ride will need a timing system to make sure that the trains duel through the inverted drops/Staffordshire knot. What better timing system could there be than a backwards free-fall drop?
"The Marmalisation Process has been scientifically designed to ensure a sense of euphoria and satisfaction should be had by all... There are no, known, Long Term side effects to the Marmalisation process, however short term side effects may include: dizziness, vomiting, loss of balance, loss of limb control, feinting, wild hallucinations but most importantly Smiles!"
 
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Re: The Smiler - Speculation

Wed May 01, 2013 9:39 pm

My problem with the reverse free fall on the lift hill is that I don't believe that it would add much to the overall ride experience. As mentioned before in this thread the feature's not technically a world's either.
 
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Re: The Smiler - Speculation

Wed May 01, 2013 9:59 pm

People, not we been seeing a reverse drop, the lift flaps are a security system since the train is 4x4, it is also to prevent rollback. A drop is not possible since there is a strong braking as in a free fall.

The smiler is to make you smile, a fall backwards does not make you smile.
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Re: The Smiler - Speculation

Wed May 01, 2013 10:29 pm

I never suggested a dipping chain, I thought more like a funny shaped dog that would not hold the train past the crest, and a normal dog? So long as both lifts release a train at the same time (with my idea as the chain doesn't have to stop or roll back itself) you will have a correct duel, this can be adjusted slightly with the trims on the airtime hill... With my theory it's a simple matter of synchronizing the chains on the lifthills, so they drop a train and then lift the train both at the same time... Just incase you didn't realise, the entire track has been designed so that the vertical lift is in the middle of the ride... In other words it's the same length from lifthill to v lift as it is from v lift to station, trains leave the hills at the same time = guarranteed duel
Last edited by Andzdrew on Wed May 01, 2013 10:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
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Re: The Smiler - Speculation

Wed May 01, 2013 10:32 pm

getothing wrote:
People, not we been seeing a reverse drop, the lift flaps are a security system since the train is 4x4, it is also to prevent rollback. A drop is not possible since there is a strong braking as in a free fall.

The smiler is to make you smile, a fall backwards does not make you smile.

The smiler is the ultimate in British humor, making you smile is the last thing on it's mind
 
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Astro61201
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Re: The Smiler - Speculation

Thu May 02, 2013 6:57 pm

Agreed its supposed to make you smile but at 4g's I highly dought you will. Anyway I like the idea of a vertical freefall drop as the worlds first but riders may know slightly what to expect due to big grizzly. but that is not vertical so what will make it a worlds first?
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Re: The Smiler - Speculation

Thu May 02, 2013 7:09 pm

There is no reverse free fall, if there was then the first lift hill wouldn't have fins. And some might say "well the first lift hills fins are more spaced out" - of course they are, the ride car wouldn't be able to accelerate down the normal lift hill as fast as it would down the vertical which is why there are less fins.
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Re: The Smiler - Speculation

Thu May 02, 2013 7:15 pm

James97 wrote:
There is no reverse free fall, if there was then the first lift hill wouldn't have fins. And some might say "well the first lift hills fins are more spaced out" - of course they are, the ride car wouldn't be able to accelerate down the normal lift hill as fast as it would down the vertical which is why there are less fins.


And with this statement you have just agreed there will be some rolling down the lifthill, you're right, the speed will be less on the first lift, that's why we see smaller and less fins. To duel correctly a train must leave both lifts at the same time, so if there's a freefall on the vertical, there will be something to make up that time on the 1st hill too, so the trains leave at the same time

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