Page 18 of 264

Re: The Smiler - Speculation

Posted: Mon Jan 09, 2012 1:03 am
by Dormiens-Dave
Lotte wrote:
dominoes wrote:
Sorry if this has already been posted, but what about this? Vertical launch that was originally going in the Dark Forest...
Image


Thats the original promotional art for Oblivion which has been photoshopped  :x


Just to point out this image was located in the Alton Towers Archives during our visit there in November, which we released through the Advent Calendar. It is linked with some images of the Zierer vertical launch system.

As for manufacturer i'm satisfied that this is definately a Gerstlaur ride, whether it is a Euro-Fighter or not is up for debate. The track design is not a current style for any manufacturer (i know some have suggested MS but if you look closely they are very different). This is clearly a new track concept and the plans state it is Gerstlaur and to lie in a plan could render it surely invalid.

Plus i'm just confident :D

Re: The Smiler - Speculation

Posted: Mon Jan 09, 2012 5:16 am
by sibic
nice photo a rocket style launch (v launch form a stand still) would be cool and wood suite a euro fighter type ride just think of the anticipation with a countdown. Think the ride will have stadium seating like oblivion as knowing that will give an idea of what its doing.

Re: The Smiler - Speculation

Posted: Mon Jan 09, 2012 7:14 am
by Stelios7
AstroDan wrote:
I presume cars will have to be dispatched together if they are to duel.

:)

Sent from my Desire HD using Tapatalk

Yeah, but don't rule out the possibility of a half duelling, half racing coaster! :D

Re: The Smiler - Speculation

Posted: Mon Jan 09, 2012 7:58 am
by AstroDan
Regarding colour, no matter what the park choose as the colour of the ride, if it is to be kept looking good, it will need a repaint.

Alton don't appear to have the money for this sort of thing. But you only have to look at Drayton Manor who have repainted both their major coasters recently - and they look fantastic for it.

If Oblivion is not repainted and completely refurbished, it will look terrible next to the new ride!

Sent from my Desire HD using Tapatalk

Re: The Smiler - Speculation

Posted: Mon Jan 09, 2012 8:51 am
by Nath89
If anyone wants me to, I can paint up a sample plate at work of RAL7021 and upload of photo of it so you can see the exact colour.

Re: The Smiler - Speculation

Posted: Mon Jan 09, 2012 9:00 am
by Nemesis94
Just thought I'd share some thoughts on a couple of issues that seem to keep cropping up, based on the amount of time I have spent looking at and measuring the drawings.

Vertical Launch?
These plans are for a standard vertical lift hill used with the normal Euro-Fighter cars. The curves onto and off of the hill are the same radius when measured against other similar rides. The curve at the apex is much too sharp to be launched over. I also believe that the dueling element of the ride will be a very large part of it (especially when they begin to market it), and if one half uses a lift and the other a launch, it could be very difficult for them to get the timings right.

If the ride does end up with a vertical launch, then the drawings for that part of the ride will be significantly changed.

Longer Trains?
haydn! wrote:
Is No-Limits realistic in terms of speed? As if so, I'd say it runs a little too fast with traditional Euro-Fighter cars suggesting heavier/longer cars may be used?

I am a mathematician by trade and one of the laws of mechanics is that kinetic energy is proportional to mass. Heavier and longer cars would result in the ride running faster, not slower. Couple of examples for you: Which is easier to stop, a 1tonne car travelling at 30mph, or a 40tonne lorry travelling at 30mph. Why do you think the park's use sandbags and water-bottles when testing rides?

With regards to the No Limits simulation, it is reliant on the No Limits programing for friction and other resisting forces (over which I have no control). My personal opinion based on these drawings is that the cars used with be the standard Euro-fighter car, with 2 rows of 4 seats. I've mentioned before about the 3-row car needing a larger radius curve onto and off of the lift, which these drawings do not have. It doesn't mean to say they won't be a variation on the design, with either lap-bars or maybe floorless? We cannot say at this stage.
With regards my model I may hide some trims about the ride to give a better interpretation of the speed (don't worry, you won't be able to see or "feel" them).

Cars despatched together?
With regards the station, based on it's dimensions given I imagine it will be very similar to SAW, with duel loading and unloading. Cars will probably be worked as pairs. As such there will likely be 6 cars for the ride (potentially 7 if they want a spare), this is how many I have my No Limits model working on, and as I say, dispatch is approximately every 30 seconds.

Re: The Smiler - Speculation

Posted: Mon Jan 09, 2012 9:01 am
by Nemesis94
Nath89 wrote:
If anyone wants me to, I can paint up a sample plate at work of RAL7021 and upload of photo of it so you can see the exact colour.


PS If you check my images on page 20 (I think), the track and supports are coloured in the RGB equivalent of RAL7021.

Re: The Smiler - Speculation

Posted: Mon Jan 09, 2012 10:41 am
by adsyrah
Okay, for some reason I've got this in my head - what if the ride is similar to Deul? You have to try shoot people on the other train as you go round the track. That would be a world first?

Or how about if the rows on the car were back-to-back? So you could choose to ride the coaster forwards or backwards.

Both sound like awful ideas, I know.

Also, with Merlin and the Saw tie-in I've got it in my head that this ride could be Men In Black themed (what with a new film out this year) and Merlin's current love of film franchises.

Re: The Smiler - Speculation

Posted: Mon Jan 09, 2012 10:47 am
by Nemesis94
Boz wrote:

incidentally the return hole in the station is 4m wide which is definitely not enough for a 4 across train and the maintenance track hole is only 3.5m so i think we are looking at 2 across trains.

although at the moment these plans are lacking huge levels of detail so i suppose anything could change  8)


4m is more than wide enough for the 4-wide train, as is 3.5m. Normal EuroFighter track is 1.2m wide, and the cars (based on photographs) cannot be more than 2m wide. So potentially, they could be 6-wide. Although with a train this wide the lateral forces on the outer seats start to get a lot more fierce.

Re: The Smiler - Speculation

Posted: Mon Jan 09, 2012 10:57 am
by mezza
HAJiME wrote:
Lotte wrote:

3. SOURCE NOISE LEVELS AND NOISE PROPAGATION
PROPOSED COASTER NOISE LEVELS
3.1 Noise from the planned new coaster was modelled based on a similar one located at
Thorpe Park. The Thorpe Park ride, “Saw” is the same type and manufacturer as the
proposed ride, including a “beyond vertical” drop. Third octave band measurements
were conducted on 2 November 2011 using a calibrated Norsonics type 118 sound
level meter, tripod mounted at a height of 1.2 m above ground level. Weather
conditions were suitable for noise measurements, with low wind speeds and
remaining dry. Measurements were taken at appropriate times to avoid nearby rides
influencing the measured noise levels, particularly Samurai and Colossus, which
were both operating during the measurement period

Does no one here have issues with the fact that this quote also states the ride has a beyond vertical drop, which we know it doesn't? I find it hard to trust that document. I also doubt the importance of it getting something like that correct, expecting that it was written by a consulting company who are not specifically in the attractions industry. Even if it is a Gerst Eurofighter, it's probably not got the same ride vehicles as Saw, so the noise it would produce would be different. It's clearly not that important for it to be all that accurate.


Do we know it doesn't?  Is it at all possible that there is a beyond vertical drop in the building? We know there is height change between entering and leaving, and the possibility of excavation... could the ride begin or end with a beyond vertical drop?

Does it really only take a few months to design a ride like this?

I think James' theory is pretty ace, that this isn't the original plan for 2013 but it's not something that's only recently been produced, either. That said, I do think it takes a scarily short space of time once they have an idea of what they are doing, and it's totally possible as we have seen countless times to make U-turns last minute. I used to think they must spend years working on attractions, much like the film industry, but that's not the case at all... Unless you're Disney?


Fair enough - this all makes sense.  Yeah, I guess if the basic ride design is being developed elsewhere, and there is no complex new technology (eg th13teen's drop) then developing the track layout will just be a fair bit of 3D modelling etc, which could easily be the work of months, not years

Re: The Smiler - Speculation

Posted: Mon Jan 09, 2012 11:11 am
by Dormiens-Dave
Nemesis94 just a quick question. All though mass is important for kenetic energy doesnt a longer train introduce more drag... primarily because the back of the train often prevents the acceleration down a drop as it has not reached the summit.

Essentially the simple mathmatics are not easily applied as there is to train length as well as mass. I know NL is not perfect in its simulation but it is close and the trains run alot slower than the shuttles do.

But im definately not a mathmatician. So i could easily be wronh

Re: The Smiler - Speculation

Posted: Mon Jan 09, 2012 12:14 pm
by muttlee
mezza wrote:
HAJiME wrote:
Lotte wrote:

3. SOURCE NOISE LEVELS AND NOISE PROPAGATION
PROPOSED COASTER NOISE LEVELS
3.1 Noise from the planned new coaster was modelled based on a similar one located at
Thorpe Park. The Thorpe Park ride, “Saw” is the same type and manufacturer as the
proposed ride, including a “beyond vertical” drop. Third octave band measurements
were conducted on 2 November 2011 using a calibrated Norsonics type 118 sound
level meter, tripod mounted at a height of 1.2 m above ground level. Weather
conditions were suitable for noise measurements, with low wind speeds and
remaining dry. Measurements were taken at appropriate times to avoid nearby rides
influencing the measured noise levels, particularly Samurai and Colossus, which
were both operating during the measurement period

Does no one here have issues with the fact that this quote also states the ride has a beyond vertical drop, which we know it doesn't? I find it hard to trust that document. I also doubt the importance of it getting something like that correct, expecting that it was written by a consulting company who are not specifically in the attractions industry. Even if it is a Gerst Eurofighter, it's probably not got the same ride vehicles as Saw, so the noise it would produce would be different. It's clearly not that important for it to be all that accurate.


Do we know it doesn't?  Is it at all possible that there is a beyond vertical drop in the building? We know there is height change between entering and leaving, and the possibility of excavation... could the ride begin or end with a beyond vertical drop?


I think that sentence can be read in a different way giving a more appropriate meaning. If you read it as...
The Thorpe Park ride, “Saw” is the same type and manufacturer as the proposed ride. The Thorpe Park ride, “Saw” includes a “beyond vertical” drop.

If we remember that this report is all about noise, I think it could be assumed that a vertical drop would produce more screams and therefore more noise (particually higher frequencys which will travel further). So if we take the sentence a bit further, this might be interpreted as Saw would actually be louder than the new ride, due to the new ride not having the same vertical drop.

I'm not convinced that the logic of a vertical drop making people scream more is correct, but I think this is a possible way of reading the phrase with a different meaning!

Re: The Smiler - Speculation

Posted: Mon Jan 09, 2012 12:20 pm
by Nemesis94
Dormiens-Dave wrote:
Nemesis94 just a quick question. All though mass is important for kenetic energy doesnt a longer train introduce more drag... primarily because the back of the train often prevents the acceleration down a drop as it has not reached the summit.

Essentially the simple mathmatics are not easily applied as there is to train length as well as mass. I know NL is not perfect in its simulation but it is close and the trains run alot slower than the shuttles do.

But im definately not a mathmatician. So i could easily be wronh


I imagine the mechanics for a rollercoaster train will be calculated based on the train's centre of mass. This will usually be around the central car. If we are talking about a 7 car train, the train will not accelerate until the 4th car (the centre car) has passed the apex of the hill. But when it does, it will have considerably more energy to overcome all the resistance forces against it. A longer train will also give added momentum as additional cars will experience less air resistance (as the air is already being deflected by the first car). In other words, the added drag is less proportional for each additional car.

Another real-life example is Schwarzkopf's Thriller and Drier Looping. These originally had 7-car trains, but they were travelling much too quickly around the loops (with the G-forces being much to severe). Hence Drier ended up with only 5-car trains at Flamingo Land. Remove too many cars though and it is possible that the train will not complete the circuit.

A quick question? Are you using trains of multiple Euro-Fighter cars in No Limits? I cannot get that option. If you are using a different coaster type (life a schwarzkopf or B&M) it is possible that the friction calculations for that ride behave differently (hence the ride appears slower). No Limits is an excellent simulation, but I don't think the rides quite behave like they should (if dimensionally accurate like me model is). Gertslauer, B&M, Intamin and all the other designers will have some extremely complex formulae to generate their models based on average train weight, centrapedal forces, air resistance, drag and so on.

Hope that helps!

Re: The Smiler - Speculation

Posted: Mon Jan 09, 2012 12:22 pm
by Nath89
It's difficult to get a photo of, but here is the RAL7021 that has been mentioned...

Image

Image

Re: The Smiler - Speculation

Posted: Mon Jan 09, 2012 1:46 pm
by Spike
Dormiens-Dave wrote:
I know NL is not perfect in its simulation but it is close and the trains run alot slower than the shuttles do.


Never gets old when you put a 50 car strong train on a woodie :lol:

Re: The Smiler - Speculation

Posted: Mon Jan 09, 2012 3:43 pm
by Jollylee11
With regards to statement of the beyond vertical drop, like i've said before, it is not staying SW7 will have a beyond vertical drop its staying how saw the ride has a beyond vertical drop and that makes limited noise, the plans are not wrong
They could have "the worlds first indoor beyond vertical drop" but isn't that just taking the purpose of Oblivion and Saw away from them? Something we don't not want, so their will be no beyond vertical drop for SW7 just to clear that up  :)

Re: The Smiler - Speculation

Posted: Mon Jan 09, 2012 4:15 pm
by Mattchu_19
Well after looking at the plans i think this is exactly what Alton Towers needs! Also i agree that there wont be a vertical drop or beyond vertical drop because of Oblivion, if they were putting another vertical drop ride in it would be located somewhere else than X-sector!

Looking forwards to 2013 :D

Re: The Smiler - Speculation

Posted: Mon Jan 09, 2012 4:18 pm
by starbugger1303
Just to say, I saw a huge crane in the X-Sector area of the park,  when i was on the bus home from school.

:)

Re: The Smiler - Speculation

Posted: Mon Jan 09, 2012 4:24 pm
by Big Dave
Probably something to do with winter maintenance. Might be adding or removing trains from Oblivion.

Re: The Smiler - Speculation

Posted: Mon Jan 09, 2012 4:26 pm
by CoasterCrazyChris
Talking of cranes - isn't it about time the holding chain was replaced?

Oblivion never seems to hold the trains for longer than a split second now.