UK theme parks from another point of view!

 
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ilyAlton
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Re: The Smiler - Construction Discussion

Mon Apr 15, 2013 6:40 pm

Nice vid from our good friend Shawn Sanbrooke:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fU4u436YdAc&t=2m45s

Shows the vertical lift contruction:)
 
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Danny
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Re: The Smiler - Construction Discussion

Mon Apr 15, 2013 6:45 pm

We can see from the last picture danny posted work is still going on on the giggler, has it been confirmed that it will spray a mist as you pass?
 
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spin_doctor
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Re: The Smiler - Construction Discussion

Mon Apr 15, 2013 6:46 pm

This could be really stupid as I don't know much about the mechanics of rides, but could they just be extra brakes for incase the brakes on the flat section before the vertical lift fail?

Not that the train would be going fast enough to reach the top of the vertical lift anyway but maybe they are there as a precaution as brakes do fail! So if the ride maintained its speed at the half way point and hit the vertical lift, these would slow it down and let it be pulled up by the chain, just a thought.  :P
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sw7nutter
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Re: The Smiler - Construction Discussion

Mon Apr 15, 2013 6:47 pm

The lower half of that vertical lift doesn't seem to be that vertical. The top seems like it is but that bottom bit doesn't look like its in right.
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Re: The Smiler - Construction Discussion

Mon Apr 15, 2013 6:47 pm

Evostance wrote:
Altitude wrote:
^ Magnets don't need power to work. It's physics. You cannot turn them off.


Electromagnets.  I'm not convinced normal magnets will hold a 16 seater rollercoaster train up vertically.

Besides, you would have to electromagnets otherwise thats going to have to be one strong pulled to pull against the weight of the magnets if they're supposed to be stopping them from rolling back.

If they're always on magnets then they're going to have to be very strong, which OK, if they are then fine.  But you're going to have to be able to pull a train over them.
You can't have it both ways.


Hello. I'm ( going to be ) a Physicist.

I can say that in fact, they do not have to be electromagnets at all. Permanent magnets can still have enough magnetic induction to lower it. Let's just look at this that's already been posted:

Electromagnets.  I'm not convinced normal magnets will hold a 16 seater rollercoaster train up vertically.

Image
We can see that the fins are pretty long, there's quite a lot of them, and there's a reinforced structure behind the actual track. As long as the magnet's structural strength is pretty good, then there's nothing to worry about. Let's look a wikipedia for a nice solid source:
The stronger the applied magnetic field, or the greater the electrical conductivity of the conductor, or the faster the field changes, then the greater the currents that are developed and the greater the fields produced.
Doesn't really matter about how great the fin's magnetic field strength is, as long as the conductivity of the conductor is good ( read: will be very good ) and how fast the field changes ( acceleration on the car due to gravity = pretty fast field change ). These will in turn generate a pretty big magnetic field, eliminating the whole "electromagnet" debate - a permanent one will do the same.

"Besides, you would have to electromagnets otherwise thats going to have to be one strong pulled to pull against the weight of the magnets if they're supposed to be stopping them from rolling back."

Well, the cars will weigh multiple tonnes, no doubt. But we've got a pretty solid support structure, and the car will no doubt span at least 2 conductors, spreading the weight distribution. As the car obviously isn't going to be stationary as it's physically impossible, the car will be moving or accelerating downward, reducing the force that will actually be applied onto the magnets themselves - tensile stress isn't a biggie either, they can handle it.

  But you're going to have to be able to pull a train over them.
You can't have it both ways.


True, but note that the velocity and acceleration of the train going up will be much smaller than the acceleration and velocity going down - note an acceleration of about 0.25 ms^(-2) compared to 9.8ms^(-2). The forces applied to the brakes will be far smaller , so less of a drag or brake force will be applied.

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gouldy
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Re: The Smiler - Construction Discussion

Mon Apr 15, 2013 6:53 pm

On a usual Eurofighter, there is a simple rack and dog mechanism fitted, like any other lift hill. These are so the train cannot roll backwards down the lift hill under any circumstance. On Eurofighter lifts, this becomes a problem if the ride breaks down to such an extent that the people on the lift hill need to be evacuated from the train, as you can imagine. The evacuation process would be a particularly awkward affair, that could actually be dangerous.

However, with the fins it's possible, without any power whatsoever (in case of a powercut), to allow the train to slowly roll back down the hill into the horizontzal position; allowing the evacuation process to be as simple as stepping out of the train onto a catwalk.

That seems the most reasonable explanation for the fins as I can see.
 
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Re: The Smiler - Construction Discussion

Mon Apr 15, 2013 6:58 pm

Just to clarify this going backwards down the hill to help evacuation happens on Abismo in Warner Madrid, The video shows a guy who filmed it off TPR who got stuck on the hill and was lowerd down :)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GhgqqnBYLYU

I hope its something slightly more interesting like a launch though but that is purely wishing, not to say it will happen. :(
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Re: The Smiler - Construction Discussion

Mon Apr 15, 2013 6:59 pm

I'm really surprised people have jumped the gun here at guessing what we are seeing here with the fins, process or elimination should have been applied....

Rule out LIM launch system, this isn't one of those.

I doubt it is for a controlled anti rollback system, the reason for this is that the chain will have to pull the car up that hundreds of times every day, the fins being magnetic breaks will put strain on the motor and cause issues, what's that you say, they are retractable fins?!?! - Thats right, but I am sure you need that element called POWER to retract and apply these fins, so if there were a power cut, the fins would need to be engaged anyway, so you can rule out a safety system. 

I am sure earlier on in these threads there was a hydraulic ram at the bottom by the motor, could that have something to do with the chain momentarily disengaging the train as it goes up, for a fall back effect, then the fins will 'catch' the train and then the chain will take over again. 
 
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Re: The Smiler - Construction Discussion

Mon Apr 15, 2013 6:59 pm

gouldy wrote:
On a usual Eurofighter, there is a simple rack and dog mechanism fitted, like any other lift hill. These are so the train cannot roll backwards down the lift hill under any circumstance. On Eurofighter lifts, this becomes a problem if the ride breaks down to such an extent that the people on the lift hill need to be evacuated from the train, as you can imagine. The evacuation process would be a particularly awkward affair, that could actually be dangerous.

However, with the fins it's possible, without any power whatsoever (in case of a powercut), to allow the train to slowly roll back down the hill into the horizontzal position; allowing the evacuation process to be as simple as stepping out of the train onto a catwalk.

That seems the most reasonable explanation for the fins as I can see.


Ok so understanding this is not hard, I understand fully what these fins will do incase of a snapped chain, motor failure etc...the ony thing I don't understand is why now? All the coasters, all the vertical lifts especially from gerst, why now?
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Capt.Barnacles
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Re: The Smiler - Construction Discussion

Mon Apr 15, 2013 7:00 pm

To repeat from earlier, since I haven't had any replies confirming or busting this rumour, a friend told me a little tidbit at school (Thomaspouvcher as known here) and he said that the Flasher lights had been installed and tested already. True or not?
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Re: The Smiler - Construction Discussion

Mon Apr 15, 2013 7:02 pm

MatthewR1990 wrote:
gouldy wrote:
On a usual Eurofighter, there is a simple rack and dog mechanism fitted, like any other lift hill. These are so the train cannot roll backwards down the lift hill under any circumstance. On Eurofighter lifts, this becomes a problem if the ride breaks down to such an extent that the people on the lift hill need to be evacuated from the train, as you can imagine. The evacuation process would be a particularly awkward affair, that could actually be dangerous.

However, with the fins it's possible, without any power whatsoever (in case of a powercut), to allow the train to slowly roll back down the hill into the horizontzal position; allowing the evacuation process to be as simple as stepping out of the train onto a catwalk.

That seems the most reasonable explanation for the fins as I can see.


Ok so understanding this is not hard, I understand fully what these fins will be abs to do incase of a snapped chain etc...the ony thing I don't understand is why now? All the coasters, all the vertical lifts especially from gerst.



Why when they invented television didn't they just invent it in colour?

Development, I guess.  You might see that all Eurofighter's have fins on the lift from now on.  Either that, or Alton requested a safer/easier method of evacuation on the lift.  Alton may have much much tighter restrictions as far as safety is concerned than other parks.
 
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Re: The Smiler - Construction Discussion

Mon Apr 15, 2013 7:03 pm

andzdrew wrote:
I honestly have no idea what it is but I'm certain it's not to stop the train rolling backwards, lift hills have been doing that themselves since they were invented, these are new and they are there for a reason, there are 5 unlockable things in the game and because JW said u have to ride to see doesn't mean we should take those words so damned literally


Okay calm... deep breath haha.
Lift hills have been doing it well, yes. But things change! Without change there would be no innovation! I'm sure Alton Towers would do whatever they could to reduce noise levels in that particular section of the park!
aircanman wrote:
I'm really surprised people have jumped the gun here at guessing what we are seeing here with the fins, process or elimination should have been applied....

Rule out LIM launch system, this isn't one of those.

I doubt it is for a controlled anti rollback system, the reason for this is that the chain will have to pull the car up that hundreds of times every day, the fins being magnetic breaks will put strain on the motor and cause issues, what's that you say, they are retractable fins?!?! - Thats right, but I am sure you need that element called POWER to retract and apply these fins, so if there were a power cut, the fins would need to be engaged anyway, so you can rule out a safety system. 

I am sure earlier on in these threads there was a hydraulic ram at the bottom by the motor, could that have something to do with the chain momentarily disengaging the train as it goes up, for a fall back effect, then the fins will 'catch' the train and then the chain will take over again. 


I would imagine they would add power to retract the fins. That way, if the power failed, the fins would pop back out and slow the train down. Problem solved!

Having said that, your bottom point is certainly a possibility!
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Re: The Smiler - Construction Discussion

Mon Apr 15, 2013 7:09 pm

aircanman wrote:
I doubt it is for a controlled anti rollback system, the reason for this is that the chain will have to pull the car up that hundreds of times every day, the fins being magnetic breaks will put strain on the motor and cause issues, what's that you say, they are retractable fins?!?! - Thats right, but I am sure you need that element called POWER to retract and apply these fins, so if there were a power cut, the fins would need to be engaged anyway, so you can rule out a safety system.


If you have compressed air storage, there is no need for power, until all the compressed air has been used.  The fins are pnuematically operated and a physical switch can be turned to operate them. No power required, whatsoever.

Or as stated above, the fins would be in a normally open position and being powered closed, so if the power cut off, the fins would automatically engage.
 
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Re: The Smiler - Construction Discussion

Mon Apr 15, 2013 7:20 pm

gouldy wrote:
aircanman wrote:
I doubt it is for a controlled anti rollback system, the reason for this is that the chain will have to pull the car up that hundreds of times every day, the fins being magnetic breaks will put strain on the motor and cause issues, what's that you say, they are retractable fins?!?! - Thats right, but I am sure you need that element called POWER to retract and apply these fins, so if there were a power cut, the fins would need to be engaged anyway, so you can rule out a safety system.


If you have compressed air storage, there is no need for power, until all the compressed air has been used.  The fins are pnuematically operated and a physical switch can be turned to operate them. No power required, whatsoever.

Or as stated above, the fins would be in a normally open position and being powered closed, so if the power cut off, the fins would automatically engage.


It is possible that air could power these, there will still need to be some sort of electronic switch somewhere along the line to engage or disengage them (unless they run high pressure piping from the lift hill to the control booth)

And for the fins to engage when the power goes off, there would need to be a constant current holding them in, this is not how it's going to be. 
 
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Re: The Smiler - Construction Discussion

Mon Apr 15, 2013 7:26 pm

aircanman wrote:
gouldy wrote:
aircanman wrote:
I doubt it is for a controlled anti rollback system, the reason for this is that the chain will have to pull the car up that hundreds of times every day, the fins being magnetic breaks will put strain on the motor and cause issues, what's that you say, they are retractable fins?!?! - Thats right, but I am sure you need that element called POWER to retract and apply these fins, so if there were a power cut, the fins would need to be engaged anyway, so you can rule out a safety system.


If you have compressed air storage, there is no need for power, until all the compressed air has been used.  The fins are pnuematically operated and a physical switch can be turned to operate them. No power required, whatsoever.

Or as stated above, the fins would be in a normally open position and being powered closed, so if the power cut off, the fins would automatically engage.


It is possible that air could power these, there will still need to be some sort of electronic switch somewhere along the line to engage or disengage them (unless they run high pressure piping from the lift hill to the control booth)

And for the fins to engage when the power goes off, there would need to be a constant current holding them in, this is not how it's going to be.



When I said a switch that can be turned to operate them, I don't mean by a person, in the control booth.  You know how when there's a power surge at home, and the breakers in your circuit board all trip.  Think of that as a switch, with the breaker in the on position, the fins are in their retracted position; however when the breaker trips, the switch goes off and allows the compressed air into the system.

And in the other circumstance, the constant power required to keep a switch on, instead of off, is negligable.  You see these same switches all over the ride as proximity sensors.  This is the beauty of using compressed air; you can have a trigger event, that sees a powercut as just another trigger/switch in the system.
 
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Re: The Smiler - Construction Discussion

Mon Apr 15, 2013 7:27 pm

I'm loving the "Trick Track" installed today, the lift hill is going to scare so many people!
 
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arE Y0u R3AdY t0 Sm1Le?
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Re: The Smiler - Construction Discussion

Mon Apr 15, 2013 7:28 pm

tigzie1 wrote:
I'm loving the "Trick Track" installed today, the lift hill is going to scare so many people!


since when was there a trick track? :D
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Re: The Smiler - Construction Discussion

Mon Apr 15, 2013 7:29 pm

Ockhams razor everyone! Shave away the unlikely and what remains is likely to be the truth.

The park has problems with noise, eddy current braking is silent.

Vertical lifts are notorious for being difficult to evacuate, this means the ride wouldn't be evacuated on the vertical.

People commented on the length of the pre lift brake run, this means it can accommodate one train plus maybe another.

There doesn't look to be any mechanism for the chain to retract enabling a drop, gerstlauer chains are already adapted for pulling trains up vertical inclines, adapting them further would make it more unreliable.

Other coasters already use this system, sky loops etc

People are looking too hard for the secret element.

It will either be in the tunnel or with the trains, we don't need to invent a new element (which was already don't on the vekoma giant inverted boomerang) in order to sate everyone's thirst.

Don't get your hopes up on the secret element. Savour the coaster without it, I hardly think it can be much improved upon, secret element notwithstanding.
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Re: The Smiler - Construction Discussion

Mon Apr 15, 2013 7:30 pm

youarecorrectsir wrote:
I would imagine they would add power to retract the fins. That way, if the power failed, the fins would pop back out and slow the train down. Problem solved!


Bingo. This guy understands how it will work. Just like mechanical brakes are always closed so if a power cut happens then the train will still get stopped. The same I would imagine will be the same for these that they are powered down but when there is no power they are automatically raised.
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Re: The Smiler - Construction Discussion

Mon Apr 15, 2013 7:31 pm

dylan.tempelaars wrote:
Luke_A wrote:
There is no way that they can be LIM's or LSM's.

The fins are clearly the metal alloy of copper/steel and sometimes bronze which is always used for the braking fins, these cannot be electrified in order to provide any sort of acceleration.

From the images, this looks like an identical system to that used on Millennium Coaster at Fantasy Island.
On Millennium, in the event of the list chain stopping, the train can be simply rolled back down the lift until it reaches the bottom where a friction system (tyres / pinch brakes) can hold the train in place. The Smiler has a few friction / pinch brakes at the base of it's vertical lift.

If this is what The Smiler is using, then...
a) No need for the cherry picker cage on the side of the lift which is used for evac's on Eurofighters as can be seen in the video below.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6JWtbCCSUMM

b) No need for metal teeth on either side of the chain trough because this system is in place, instead; the block section before the lift will simply stay unoccupied by a train until the lift is clear, in the event that a car cannot make it up the full lift. No metal teeth = silent lift.
((The motors used on Gerstlauer coasters are incredibly quiet for their size as it is.))

c) Due to the longer 16-person trains, it may be deemed unsafe or too time-consuming to be able to evacuate the train in the vertical position, meaning Gerstlauer had to come up with this solution instead.

Just a few things i felt needed bringing up. :)


i have been on millenium at fantasy and experienced going backwards due to malfunction so this is true :)


Something seriously wrong if that's the case then lol Vekoma have used a silenced anti rollback system for a number of years now using a fin as seen here:
Image
Incredibly similar and it uses a mechanism like a ratchet pawl at either side of the rail. When moving forwards the pawls allow it to move forwards however once it stops and gravity tries to bring it back down the hill the pawl engages and it stops. It's also silent once it starts, Vekoma used it for years and it looks like Gerstlaurer might well be doing it as well now.

A heavier duty version of this:
Image
The rail goes in the middle.
Last edited by jackcullen on Mon Apr 15, 2013 7:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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