UK theme parks from another point of view!

 
User avatar
Danger Noise
TT Member
TT Member
Posts: 203
Joined: October 2008
Location: sheffield
Contact:

Re: The Smiler - Construction Discussion

Mon May 13, 2013 10:30 pm

I'd wager the trying the softer wheels is due to the bodged track pieces...
[url=http://www.dangernoiseaudio.com\" onclick=\"window.open(this.href);return false;]www.dangernoiseaudio.com[/url]

[url=http://soundcloud.com/rich-dangernoise/november-drum-n-bass-mix-tech-rich\" onclick=\"window.open(this.href);return false;]http://soundcloud.com/rich-dangernoise/ ... -tech-rich[/url]
 
User avatar
Instant Mix
TT Member
TT Member
Posts: 157
Joined: March 2010

Re: The Smiler - Construction Discussion

Mon May 13, 2013 10:34 pm

arsenalfan-1 wrote:
youarecorrectsir wrote:
Actually, it doesn't make any difference how full the trains are... We've all seen the clever physics behind dropping a kg mass and dropping a tennis ball at the same time - they hit the ground at the same time. The same phenomenon occurs here.

The spread of mass within the car will play a role, yes, but not the total mass.

I've seen Nemesis with a full train and I have seen Nemesis with 1 person on it. It does not change the speed or ride length, because it accelerates down the hills at the same rate regardless of mass.

I would say they are calibrating the trim brakes, getting the right transfer function to make sure they work for different speeds in different weather conditions etc.

EDIT: Which means this is EXTREMELY unlikely that this will be the final speed. This is why they test people :) For every worst case scenario. Fear not - it WILL be quicker.

I'm a bit confused with all this mass business. This is because I thought that a higher mass means higher momentum. (Momentum=Mass x Velocity) Or is this not relevant?

Edit: Now I have thought about this further, the momentum isn't anything to do with speed because that's in the equation (velocity). To rephrase that, if there is higher mass it icreases the momentum but not the velocity. Therefore, you are right, the mass of the vehicle won't effect the speed of the train and obviously the falling speed is always the same due to the gravitational field of strength.


You are right. Partially. The heavier mass won't make the car travel faster, but it WILL reduce the amount of energy lost. Due to the greater momentum, it takes more effort to reduce the velocity of the train. A train half the size would lose considerably more energy ( let's say it was a half pipe - this train would only get up half way the other side of the half pipe ) however the larger, and heavier train, loses it slower ( in the same situation, this heavier train would get 3/4 the way up the half pipe). In both situations, the train does not go above it's high point - but they both still go by the laws.

A train with greater mass WILL have greater kinetic energy compared to a smaller train ( Ek = 1/2*m*v^2 )
Image
 
dazza4783
TT Member
TT Member
Posts: 399
Joined: October 2012
Location: Here

Re: The Smiler - Construction Discussion

Mon May 13, 2013 10:37 pm

aress wrote:
I did spot something else - as the train is pulled up both lift hills - the infamous "fins" retract just before the train goes over them, and then they pop back up behind the train! I know the trim brakes on Intamin coasters are down at first, and then pop up after the train passes over (see Stealth, Rita, Top Thrill Dragster), just never seen them do what they do on the Smiler before! Interesting...


Ah, the "F" word again  :roll:

It is because they are brakes, they work in pretty much the same way they do for launch coasters. They need to be down as the train is going over it so not to slow the train and put stress on the chain. Then they need to come back up straight away incase something goes wrong and the train rolls backwards down the hill, the brakes will be back up ready to stop the train.
BTW, please don't anyone take that to mean that i think there will be a deliberate rollback, pretty sure that won't be happening.
Last edited by dazza4783 on Mon May 13, 2013 10:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Image
 
User avatar
DeadJack5
Team TTSP
Team TTSP
Posts: 852
Joined: March 2012
Location: Birmingham
Contact:

Re: The Smiler - Construction Discussion

Mon May 13, 2013 10:38 pm

Kathy wrote:
Haha Roodles has pretty much been our MI7 when he's not been able to give us aerial updates.  :lol:


Or maybe he is MI7 :0
Image
Image
Image
I'm the boy with the bubbles
 
User avatar
youarecorrectsir
TT Member
TT Member
Posts: 15
Joined: February 2013
Location: Bristol

Re: The Smiler - Construction Discussion

Mon May 13, 2013 10:42 pm

Instant Mix wrote:


You are right. Partially. The heavier mass won't make the car travel faster, but it WILL reduce the amount of energy lost. Due to the greater momentum, it takes more effort to reduce the velocity of the train. A train half the size would lose considerably more energy ( let's say it was a half pipe - this train would only get up half way the other side of the half pipe ) however the larger, and heavier train, loses it slower ( in the same situation, this heavier train would get 3/4 the way up the half pipe). In both situations, the train does not go above it's high point - but they both still go by the laws.

A train with greater mass WILL have greater kinetic energy compared to a smaller train ( Ek = 1/2*m*v^2 )


Oh I'm not disputing the fact that it will have a great kinetic energy... but that has nothing to do with the speed. The speed will go unchanged. The kinetic energy is greater because the mass is heavier. However, when it travels up the next hill, the gravitation potential energy it gains is greater because its mass is greater.

Grav. potential energy + kinetic energy is always conserved. That is essentially why it works. The kinetic energy is higher at the bottom of the hill so it would intuitively seem that it goes further up the hill. But it doesn't, because it loses relatively more kinetic energy as it gains a relatively larger potential energy :)

The point you make about losses is valid though - a higher momentum will indeed make small bumps and small energy losses less important, however these rollercoasters are so well designed they are practically negligible anyway!

So I appreciate your point, but would have to politely disagree!

Boom. Engineering :D
"Everybody dies, but not everybody lives"
 
Kieran141
TT Member
TT Member
Posts: 3
Joined: March 2013
Location: Leeds

Re: The Smiler - Construction Discussion

Mon May 13, 2013 10:46 pm

What's left to do on site ?
 
User avatar
Benji
TT Member
TT Member
Posts: 280
Joined: September 2012

Re: The Smiler - Construction Discussion

Mon May 13, 2013 10:57 pm

Roodles, alton towers should definitely let you have a ride before everyone else. ;)
Thanks you for the amazing updates by the way :D

Bringing this back to construction now:
Glad they are putting some turfing down, little things like that are what make coasters look 10 times better!
Image

Thanks to Lewis for the sig!
 
aress
TT Member
TT Member
Posts: 6
Joined: April 2013

Re: The Smiler - Construction Discussion

Mon May 13, 2013 11:07 pm

dazza4783 wrote:
aress wrote:
I did spot something else - as the train is pulled up both lift hills - the infamous "fins" retract just before the train goes over them, and then they pop back up behind the train! I know the trim brakes on Intamin coasters are down at first, and then pop up after the train passes over (see Stealth, Rita, Top Thrill Dragster), just never seen them do what they do on the Smiler before! Interesting...


Ah, the "F" word again  :roll:

It is because they are brakes, they work in pretty much the same way they do for launch coasters. They need to be down as the train is going over it so not to slow the train and put stress on the chain. Then they need to come back up straight away incase something goes wrong and the train rolls backwards down the hill, the brakes will be back up ready to stop the train.
BTW, please don't anyone take that to mean that i think there will be a deliberate rollback, pretty sure that won't be happening.


Yes, but you missed my point! Usually, in front of the trains, the "fins" are down to begin with (look at Stealth launching), and then as the train passes over them, the fins rise up and act as anti-rollback brakes. But on this latest video of the Smiler, I noticed the fins are already up at first, then go down as the train passes over, then pop up again. I found this to be rather unusual!
 
User avatar
Instant Mix
TT Member
TT Member
Posts: 157
Joined: March 2010

Re: The Smiler - Construction Discussion

Mon May 13, 2013 11:08 pm

aress wrote:
dazza4783 wrote:
aress wrote:
I did spot something else - as the train is pulled up both lift hills - the infamous "fins" retract just before the train goes over them, and then they pop back up behind the train! I know the trim brakes on Intamin coasters are down at first, and then pop up after the train passes over (see Stealth, Rita, Top Thrill Dragster), just never seen them do what they do on the Smiler before! Interesting...


Ah, the "F" word again  :roll:

It is because they are brakes, they work in pretty much the same way they do for launch coasters. They need to be down as the train is going over it so not to slow the train and put stress on the chain. Then they need to come back up straight away incase something goes wrong and the train rolls backwards down the hill, the brakes will be back up ready to stop the train.
BTW, please don't anyone take that to mean that i think there will be a deliberate rollback, pretty sure that won't be happening.


Yes, but you missed my point! Usually, in front of the trains, the "fins" are down to begin with (look at Stealth launching), and then as the train passes over them, the fins rise up and act as anti-rollback brakes. But on this latest video of the Smiler, I noticed the fins are already up at first, then go down as the train passes over, then pop up again. I found this to be rather unusual!

Less energy wastage lowering the fins.
Image
 
DannyNewbro
TT Member
TT Member
Posts: 100
Joined: March 2011
Location: Anglesey, North Wales

Re: The Smiler - Construction Discussion

Mon May 13, 2013 11:26 pm

youarecorrectsir wrote:
Actually, it doesn't make any difference how full the trains are... We've all seen the clever physics behind dropping a kg mass and dropping a tennis ball at the same time - they hit the ground at the same time. The same phenomenon occurs here.

The spread of mass within the car will play a role, yes, but not the total mass.

I've seen Nemesis with a full train and I have seen Nemesis with 1 person on it. It does not change the speed or ride length, because it accelerates down the hills at the same rate regardless of mass.

I would say they are calibrating the trim brakes, getting the right transfer function to make sure they work for different speeds in different weather conditions etc.

EDIT: Which means this is EXTREMELY unlikely that this will be the final speed. This is why they test people :) For every worst case scenario. Fear not - it WILL be quicker.


*cough* Thirteen *cough*
Image
 
User avatar
ChelseeSmile102
TT Member
TT Member
Posts: 4
Joined: May 2013
Location: Stirling

Re: The Smiler - Construction Discussion

Mon May 13, 2013 11:31 pm

[/quote] You have a great talent there! ;)
God I really must get to sleep you people! Or distracting me!!  :roll: :P ;)
[/quote]

Read that wrong and thought i was in a COMPLETLEY different forum.
 
dazza4783
TT Member
TT Member
Posts: 399
Joined: October 2012
Location: Here

Re: The Smiler - Construction Discussion

Mon May 13, 2013 11:34 pm

aress wrote:
dazza4783 wrote:
aress wrote:
I did spot something else - as the train is pulled up both lift hills - the infamous "fins" retract just before the train goes over them, and then they pop back up behind the train! I know the trim brakes on Intamin coasters are down at first, and then pop up after the train passes over (see Stealth, Rita, Top Thrill Dragster), just never seen them do what they do on the Smiler before! Interesting...


Ah, the "F" word again  :roll:

It is because they are brakes, they work in pretty much the same way they do for launch coasters. They need to be down as the train is going over it so not to slow the train and put stress on the chain. Then they need to come back up straight away incase something goes wrong and the train rolls backwards down the hill, the brakes will be back up ready to stop the train.
BTW, please don't anyone take that to mean that i think there will be a deliberate rollback, pretty sure that won't be happening.


Yes, but you missed my point! Usually, in front of the trains, the "fins" are down to begin with (look at Stealth launching), and then as the train passes over them, the fins rise up and act as anti-rollback brakes. But on this latest video of the Smiler, I noticed the fins are already up at first, then go down as the train passes over, then pop up again. I found this to be rather unusual!


Yeh i see your point, but look how fast the train goes over them on a launch coaster compared to the smiler. Ofcourse they are all going to need to be down on a launch, if they weren't then just the slightest bit out on the timing of them retracting and the launch would most likely fail to get up to speed. With the chain-lifts it's going that slow that it is just as easy, if not easier to do it this way. Each fin has to come straight back up once the train has gone over it so the way they have done it is the best way to do it in this case.
There are most likely sensors on the fins and the bottom of the train to make sure they retract and lift back up at the right time.
Last edited by dazza4783 on Mon May 13, 2013 11:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Image
 
Ben-TT

Re: The Smiler - Construction Discussion

Mon May 13, 2013 11:52 pm

arE Y0u R3AdY t0 Sm1Le? wrote:
Do you think you will be able to get a on ride POV??


There are plans for a TT POV...
 
warrenashcroft
TT Member
TT Member
Posts: 0
Joined: February 2013

Re: The Smiler - Construction Discussion

Mon May 13, 2013 11:54 pm

dazza4783 wrote:
There are most likely sensors on the fins and the bottom of the train to make sure they retract and lift back up at the right time.


IIRC one of the recent TS photos show they are mechanically/physically moved out of the way by the train on a special bracket, no electronics or sensors. I assume going one way (up) pushes them out of the way and going the other way (down) keeps them out.
 
User avatar
Nocama
TT Member
TT Member
Posts: 2
Joined: January 2013
Location: Birmingham

Re: The Smiler - Construction Discussion

Mon May 13, 2013 11:56 pm

I hate to say this but ive gone through 10 pages about fins before just to learn they are breaks :( please not again, does anyone else think think the lift hills will speed up?
@jordywilsonmcr :)
 
warrenashcroft
TT Member
TT Member
Posts: 0
Joined: February 2013

Re: The Smiler - Construction Discussion

Mon May 13, 2013 11:58 pm

Nocama wrote:
I hate to say this but ive gone through 10 pages about fins before just to learn they are breaks, please can we just leave it at that :)


This is the construction topic, not the speculation topic ;)

We're talking about how they work, since they're of interest being used in a completely new way. I think we all know (I hope) that they are breaks, that's a given.
 
User avatar
Shangalaing
TT Member
TT Member
Posts: 25
Joined: November 2012
Location: Doncaster

Re: The Smiler - Construction Discussion

Tue May 14, 2013 12:21 am

dazza4783 wrote:
aress wrote:
dazza4783 wrote:
aress wrote:
I did spot something else - as the train is pulled up both lift hills - the infamous "fins" retract just before the train goes over them, and then they pop back up behind the train! I know the trim brakes on Intamin coasters are down at first, and then pop up after the train passes over (see Stealth, Rita, Top Thrill Dragster), just never seen them do what they do on the Smiler before! Interesting...


Ah, the "F" word again  :roll:

It is because they are brakes, they work in pretty much the same way they do for launch coasters. They need to be down as the train is going over it so not to slow the train and put stress on the chain. Then they need to come back up straight away incase something goes wrong and the train rolls backwards down the hill, the brakes will be back up ready to stop the train.
BTW, please don't anyone take that to mean that i think there will be a deliberate rollback, pretty sure that won't be happening.


Yes, but you missed my point! Usually, in front of the trains, the "fins" are down to begin with (look at Stealth launching), and then as the train passes over them, the fins rise up and act as anti-rollback brakes. But on this latest video of the Smiler, I noticed the fins are already up at first, then go down as the train passes over, then pop up again. I found this to be rather unusual!


Yeh i see your point, but look how fast the train goes over them on a launch coaster compared to the smiler. Ofcourse they are all going to need to be down on a launch, if they weren't then just the slightest bit out on the timing of them retracting and the launch would most likely fail to get up to speed. With the chain-lifts it's going that slow that it is just as easy, if not easier to do it this way. Each fin has to come straight back up once the train has gone over it so the way they have done it is the best way to do it in this case.
There are most likely sensors on the fins and the bottom of the train to make sure they retract and lift back up at the right time.


The fins on the vertical lift are completly automatic and failsafe, they are on free pivots that move the fin down and out due to gravity. As the train passes over the eddy current generated drags the fins up and away from the train (into the track) thus reducing the strain on the chain.

I havent seen the fins on the other hill close upb but i can imagine they could work similarly if there were a counterbalance pushing the fins up ordinarily.
Kiss my oblivion
 
User avatar
Rollercoasters4Life
TT Member
TT Member
Posts: 114
Joined: June 2011
Location: Crewe, Cheshire

Re: The Smiler - Construction Discussion

Tue May 14, 2013 12:21 am

Another video of testing from yesterday (Monday 13th) can be seen Here

Also as we know, John was on park and he was doing some media work too:

Image
Last edited by Rollercoasters4Life on Tue May 14, 2013 12:26 am, edited 1 time in total.
Image
 
PeteB
TT Member
TT Member
Posts: 3533
Joined: July 2006
Location: Sunderland
Contact:

Re: The Smiler - Construction Discussion

Tue May 14, 2013 12:26 am

Do I hear smiler area music in the background of that video?  :D
 
User avatar
Rollercoasters4Life
TT Member
TT Member
Posts: 114
Joined: June 2011
Location: Crewe, Cheshire

Re: The Smiler - Construction Discussion

Tue May 14, 2013 12:33 am

PeteB wrote:
Do I hear smiler area music in the background of that video?  :D


Does sound like it! :D
Image

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 16 guests