UK theme parks from another point of view!

Intamin vs B&M

Poll runs till Sat Aug 17, 2041 3:08 pm

Intamin
9 (16%)
B&M
47 (84%)
 
Total votes: 56
 
X_da_C
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Mon Nov 07, 2005 5:43 pm

"Wez" wrote:
-
Its common knowledge that B+M will only take on contracts that they believe will easily fit into their knowledge and practical experience. We also know that B+M didnt want the third wing over on Nemmy, it was Wardley who forced it.



Its also common knowledge that nemesis has 2 wing-overs/flat spins, and one inline (which was actually proposed by b&m)

"Wez" wrote:
Im interested in why the topic author chose Intamin and B+M. I would have gone for Intamin and Vekoma myself.


you are proposing that B&M currently with 83% of the vote shouldnt be in the poll. Yes i have to agree that some of vek's coasters are good, and yes they are definitley improving. but B&M are greatly superior overall at the moment. And can you also please tell me why, to make decent coasters, you need to get the media's attention, why does a ride have to be on prime time tv for it to be 'decent'?
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Mon Nov 07, 2005 6:48 pm

"X_da_C" wrote:
Its also common knowledge that nemesis has 2 wing-overs/flat spins, and one inline (which was actually proposed by b&m)


Its also common knowledge that B+M have no such inversion as "an inline" (on inverters anyway!) The inverters "corkscrew effect" is a wing over and the zero G roll is known as an Inline Spin. Also Flat Spins are exclusive to sit down and stand up varieties of B+M.
Aside from that, I never said that Nemesis didn't have the inversions you mention, I stated that B+M were not originally willing to have the last wing over pre station. Wardley had to convince B+M that it would work. B+M are a very specific manufacturer, by sticking to their rigid design principals they can ensure that a project works 100% each and every time. A luxury or hinderance that other manufacturers sometimes do not employ.


you are proposing that B&M currently with 83% of the vote shouldnt be in the poll. Yes i have to agree that some of vek's coasters are good, and yes they are definitley improving. but B&M are greatly superior overall at the moment. And can you also please tell me why, to make decent coasters, you need to get the media's attention, why does a ride have to be on prime time tv for it to be 'decent'?


A poll is only as good as its options. If someone put a llama in the poll there would be a vote for it. That doesnt actually mean that a llama is the best manufacturer of coasters. An open ended poll would return very different results.
How many Vekoma coasters have you ridden?! How many B+M's? How many Intamins? How do you know that B+M are "greatly superior" and Vekoma are "improving"? Everyone else has substantiated their claim and some admit to only voting B+M as they have only ridden B+M's, an admirable admission!

My point about the media was not explained well. New coasters across the world are a great media pull. When a new one opens it will get publicity only if its something new, exciting, original and most of all, liked by the public! B+M have made some crackers over the year, Hydra being a prime example.but they havnt made the news. They are one and the same. Silver Bullet is wishy washy and doesnt provide the public with anything they cant get somewhere else.Whereas Intamin and Vekoma have been out there developing projects which grab the attention, break into new areas. Vekoma Booster Bike, Intamin Rockets, Intamin Ball Coasters to name a few. They are constantly developing new ways to thrill.
B+M make quality rides but at the moment (over the last two years) they have stuck to safe design with next to no innovation. For this they fall behind the others who move the industry forward.

:)
The best, most informed enthusiast EVER!!111
 
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Mon Nov 07, 2005 6:58 pm

*****Incorrect. Hulk at Universal Studios Islands of Adventure is a launched B&M sit-down, although arguably the launch was not actually manufactured by B&M. *****

That is'nt a risk, they were just asked to build a rollercoaster, whilst someone else was dumped with the launch, also note that B&M would have had to seriously take into account the launch - which they refused to build , simply because they refuse to be flexible, that's not a risk - it's just ignorance and a large sign that B&M refuse to get with the time's, launched coaster's are "in" with enthusiast's and the public alike, so their continued refusal to build a complete launched coaster puzzles me.

*****
Walter and Claude pioneered Immelmanns, dive loops, cobra rolls, sea serpents and camelback twists. *****

Actually I believe the cobra roll, is just a take on the BATWING, consisting of the same element's, first used by Arrow dynamic's, therefore - the cobra roll is only a "take" on an older inversion, and made up of the same thing's, so how can they have pioneered the dive and immelman loop's? When Arrow Dynamic's werew using them long before the first B&M cobra roll was erected.

*****
-They don't do what the theme park wants. If the park says I want this, this and this B&M will say no we want that, that and that*****

Maybe so, however you may like to note that the 2006 B&M Inverter "Black Mamba" was an immense struggle for the park, as they had to basically force B&M to build the ride, as B&M were originally not interested in building the ride, the park said they would approach Intamin instead, so B&M gave in, so in theory, he is right, but then again, to a certain extent, so are you.

*****
I agree that Intamin's rides are, on the whole, getting smoother, however B&M track design cannot be beaten for smoothness. Your comments about Vekoma are just plain wrong - go on an SLC. They're almost as bad as Arrow. B&M rides will last the longest, and they will go on producing for many years to come. *****

Actually ALL coaster's will last for a certain amount of time, not dictated by the company - untill Health and Safety say it has to go.

Look at the Grand National, that's great, and it's around 80 year's old, not a B&M either, I can guarentee you that Nemesis (for example) won't be around in 80 year's time, simply because it won't stand the test of time against the onslaught of new age coaster's and better inverter's currently around the world and upcoming rides of the same time, where as the National is a CLASSIC, because of what it is - an icon, and a coaster unique to Europe, something Nemesis will never be, I think howlong the coaster will stay standing is irrelivent, but whether it will still have pulling power decade's on like the Grand National still does is.

I've ridden plenty of coaster's in plenty of countires, and sure, there's some great B&M's out there, however, I believe that pound for pound Intamin are a better company, not just because they are fleixble, where as B&M are not, but they DARE to do more, you say B&M play it safe, but seriously, do you think a ride will be built if it simply wont work? Look at Expedition Ge Force, there is'nt a B&M like it, tiwsted and insane sum's it up, look at Balder, wait, B&M wont build you a wooden coaster, look at X . wait, they dont build revolutionary coaster's like the 4D design of S&S Arrow either, whoop's!

Unless they change and evolve, and put simply - grow up, more flexible companie's like Intamin, Vekoma and S&S Arrow will dominate, where as B&M will fall from any posistion of greatness they currently hold, park's are constantly looking for new gimmick's to pull in the punter's, and on that - B&M simply refuse to deliver.
 
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Mon Nov 07, 2005 7:05 pm

I'm sorry, but have you seen rcdb at the moment? next year's line up is absaloutely packed full of B&Ms. Intamin and Vekoma have got nothing like as many coasters for next year. B&M can't be falling behind if they are still so popular with with parks.

At the moment I'm actually questioning if some of these new designs can actually be called roller coasters. Kingda Ka with a lift hill would be something, but launches for me are making record-breaking boring
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Mon Nov 07, 2005 7:15 pm

^ Oh yeah, PACKED, six out of twenty eight, whopping. What I think is ace about the list is the two Maurer Sohne X CAR coaster's opening, that's GREAT, and again, I dont see ANYTHING as flexible as an X CAR in the B&M line up, B&M simply could'nt compete with that kind of innovation if maurer were in the same posistion as Intamin company size wise, the X CAR can do ANYTHING most of the B&M rides can do, they could probably build an inverted one too given the time to modify the car (unless they already have and ar'nt letting on), think of it - an Inverted rollercoaster with lapbar's! The X Car requires no floor, therefore I don't see anything making it impossible.
 
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Mon Nov 07, 2005 7:41 pm

"CGM" wrote:
I'm sorry, but have you seen rcdb at the moment? next year's line up is absaloutely packed full of B&Ms. Intamin and Vekoma have got nothing like as many coasters for next year. B&M can't be falling behind if they are still so popular with with parks.

At the moment I'm actually questioning if some of these new designs can actually be called roller coasters. Kingda Ka with a lift hill would be something, but launches for me are making record-breaking boring

That is actually a very good point, which people seem to be overlooking. B&M don't need to develop at the moment when they are still putting more new coasters into parks than anyone else, cause guess what if they weren't up to it the parks wouldn't take them, as they want the BEST they can get.

Intamin needed something new they went with launches it worked for them, Vek haven't really done anything 'revolutionary' whilst B&M are masters at what they do, air is one of the most comfy rides in the world. rita one of itamin's latest coasters cant compete in smoothness, and the restraints are horrible, why on earth does it need over shoulder restraints? Although they can be excused for mistakes more than B&M as they are nowhere near as involved in the design process. there more of a churn out factory.

B&M enjoy having the best reputation, they have made plenty of their own elements and even their own coasters designs (inverted coasters for one). And your comment about grand national comparing it to nemesis saying its something Nemesis will never be --- nemesis is a classic in its own right, and a european triumph (also my favorite inverted coaster and favorite coaster in the uk by some distance)

B&M will continue to be the most successful and popular, and i see them building more great coasters for many years to come, and when they need to make something new, they will just like they always have.
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Mon Nov 07, 2005 7:56 pm

"CGM" wrote:
I'm sorry, but have you seen rcdb at the moment? next year's line up is absaloutely packed full of B&Ms. Intamin and Vekoma have got nothing like as many coasters for next year. B&M can't be falling behind if they are still so popular with with parks.

At the moment I'm actually questioning if some of these new designs can actually be called roller coasters. Kingda Ka with a lift hill would be something, but launches for me are making record-breaking boring


5 of them are Intamin if you include Superman Escape at MovieWorld Austrialia. (Opening around December 2005 I beleve)

El Toro (Soon to be the worlds tallest wooden coaster and have the steepest drop of any wooden roller-coaster), Voyage (Truly awesome layout), Stealth (UK's biggest ride for a long, long time), Speed Monster (Looking to be one of the best rocket's about, and will almost certianly becone Scandinavia's best steel coaster) and Superman (This looks truly amazing, will be the Southern hemisphere's biggest ride ever)

Look at all the major coaster polls, Intamin dominate the steel catorgory with amazing coasters such as Expedition Ge-Force, Goliath (WW) all three Superman:Ride of Steel's, Millenium Force, Xcelerator, TTD, Storm Runner and many others.

B&M just haven't kept up with the times in the coaster world, and unless they bring out a new coaster type soon I could even see them falling behing Vekoma!
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Mon Nov 07, 2005 8:00 pm

"Ketchup" wrote:

Voyage (Truly awesome layout),


Voyage isn't even an Intamin coaster. It is made by 'The Gravity Group'
If you are going to try and show how Intamin are better than B&M, using coasters that are actually made by Intamin might be a worth a try ;)
Last edited by X_da_C on Mon Nov 07, 2005 8:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Ketchup
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Mon Nov 07, 2005 8:06 pm

^ Crap.

I'm sure I read somewhere it was Intamin but nevermind.
But all those projects listed above are superior to the unoriginal dull B&M coasters.
Look at the La Ronda hyper, all it is, is hill after hill after hill. Sounds a bit dull doesn't it?
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Mon Nov 07, 2005 8:08 pm

Ketchup, can you please be a bit more respectful towards other people and not dismiss what they say as 'crap'.

How are B&M coasters dull anyway? I think you mean they are dependable.
 
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Mon Nov 07, 2005 8:11 pm

I didn't dismiss it as crap, I was referring to my mistake which was crap on my part. :roll:

But seriously do you honestly think this layout looks superb http://www.rcdb.com/ig3385.htm?picture=1 looks like something I designed.
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Mon Nov 07, 2005 8:13 pm

how can you say that Intamin is your faviroute coaster manufacturer, when on your avatar is a picture of Deamonen, a B&M floorless

Quote:But seriously do you honestly think this layout looks superb

It's an out and back layout, one of the most tried and tested layouts in coaster history. This kind of layout can deliver tons of airtime and Gs if done correctly
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Mon Nov 07, 2005 8:19 pm

I haven't actually said which manafacturer I prefer.

I'm just saying B&M have fallen behind Intamin in recent years.
and anyway why does it matter what coaster I have in my avatar?

For all you know I might be using it as it's a very photogenic picture.
But seriously Daemonen is one of my favourite coaster's i've ridden, and it is one of the few B&M coasters recently that has been mildly original with the exception of SheiKra.
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Mon Nov 07, 2005 8:22 pm

"Ketchup" wrote:
hill after hill after hill. Sounds a bit dull doesn't it?
Are you saying rides like nitro and apollo's chariot are dull. nope I don't think so. Again though why do parks build them, because people love them. Have you ever herd of 'air time'?
B&M have had far more significant impact on coaster development than anyone else: inverted, floorless, vertical, which over manufacturer as been primarily responsible for major development three types of coaster

"ASR" wrote:
launched coaster's are "in" with enthusiast's and the public alike


yet nemesis is still prefferd to rita, even thought rita was new this year and people have gone on Nemesis 20+ times, A poll on this very site is saying that stealth wont be people favorite, ttd and Ka are never refferd to as favorites, Itamin are just building copies of other rides, and yet the 'intamin fans' are accusing B&M rides of being the same.
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Mon Nov 07, 2005 8:34 pm

"X_da_C""][quote=""Ketchup" wrote:
hill after hill after hill. Sounds a bit dull doesn't it?
Are you saying rides like nitro and apollo's chariot are dull. nope I don't think so. Again though why do parks build them, because people love them. Have you ever herd of 'air time'?[/quote]

Nitro may be based on an out + back layout but is also contains some unique feautre such as Nitro's Hammerhead curve.

Intamin does airtime the best, just look at Mitch Hawkers poll (The best coaster poll around) http://www.ushsho.com/steelrollercoaste ... ts2004.htm.
5 Intamin mega coasters are in the top ten, two B&M hypers are in the top 10.

B&M have had far more significant impact on coaster development than anyone else: inverted, floorless, vertical, which over manufacturer as been primarily responsible for major development three types of coaster


Inverted - The only true B&M first but it can still be argued it was heavily based on the Arrow Suspended.

Floorless - It's just a normal coaster without a floor, if your not on the front row of one, it is exactly the same as being on a sit down train.

Vertical - First full circuit vertical drop. Mr Freeze and Super the Escape were around before Oblivion and they both had 90 degree drops.

A poll on this very site is saying that stealth wont be people favorite, ttd and Ka are never refferd to as favorites, Itamin are just building copies of other rides, and yet the 'intamin fans' are accusing B&M rides of being the same.


I've said it once and i'll say it again. Being an Alton Towers forum of course TTF will be bias towards Alton.

PS - This has turned into a very good thread!
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X_da_C
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Mon Nov 07, 2005 8:52 pm

"Ketchup" wrote:


B&M have had far more significant impact on coaster development than anyone else: inverted, floorless, vertical, which over manufacturer as been primarily responsible for major development three types of coaster


Inverted - The only true B&M first but it can still be argued it was heavily based on the Arrow Suspended.

Floorless - It's just a normal coaster without a floor, if your not on the front row of one, it is exactly the same as being on a sit down train.

Vertical - First full circuit vertical drop. Mr Freeze and Super the Escape were around before Oblivion and they both had 90 degree drops.

A poll on this very site is saying that stealth wont be people favorite, ttd and Ka are never refferd to as favorites, Itamin are just building copies of other rides, and yet the 'intamin fans' are accusing B&M rides of being the same.


I've said it once and i'll say it again. Being an Alton Towers forum of course TTF will be bias towards Alton.

PS - This has turned into a very good thread!



Firstly, where did i say that B&M invented the coaster types i just said that "B&M have had far more significant impact on coaster development than anyone else" secondly a floorless coaster is much more than a normal coaster without a floor, its a whole new experience just as an inverted coaster is totally different to a standard sit down coaster with similar restraints. How many floorless coasters have you been on? go on a few and you wont dismiss them that easily. And it was also interesting to note that the 'best coaster poll ever' that you linked to had superman: ride of steel (which in my oppinion is not great, it never seems to be well maintained either.) ranked above MF :S
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Tue Nov 08, 2005 6:16 pm

*****yet nemesis is still prefferd to rita*****

According to the AT website, on which their was a pool, Rita is ranked first in the poll, therefore, according to that source (which being the official AT website, is pretty difinative) Rita is the prefered coaster of two.

http://www.altontowers.com/themepark/ride_rita.asp

Scroll down it's on the right side.

*****A poll on this very site is saying that stealth wont be people favorite, ttd and Ka are never refferd to as favorites, Itamin are just building copies of other rides, and yet the 'intamin fans' are accusing B&M rides of being the same.*****

I hav'nt accused B&M of that, and I never will, however, I fail to see where the point "intamin build copies" come's into it, you know why I wont say it? Because on EVERY count of KK, TTD and Stealth - the park asked for that design, they gave it to Intamin and asked for it building, therefore the design is not Intamin's, and ofcourse, they ar'nt going to refuse business just because' it's "samey", no company will.

Plus, being the same seem's to work, look how many Boomerang's and Vekoma 698 meter SLC's have been sold worldwide - plenty!
 
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Tue Nov 08, 2005 6:27 pm

So being the same is good now? scroll back a couple of posts, the generally feedback I got was that B&M's biggest problem was being the same and not changing.
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Tue Nov 08, 2005 6:33 pm

^ That's because B&M refuse to do anything unique.
Intamin are just doing what the parks are ordering. However they are still making unique coaster types.

Have you seen pictures of the Intamin BallCoaster?
http://www.coastersandmore.de/rides/eas05/eas1.shtml

This ride could change the coaster industry if it's actually successful unlike Arrow's 4D.
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Tue Nov 08, 2005 6:51 pm

Have you seen the topic about the B&M 4D? This is like a controlled spinning flying coaster which looks like it could be a really good ride if built. What's more, it's a completely new concept unlike the Intamin Ball and is much more flexible. eg This coaster could actually go round corners!

But I doupt that it will ever be built, although the possibility is there.

It may look like I'm on an anti-Intamin spree or something, but I'm just putting across my views and have nothing against the manufacturers
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