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Re: The Monarchy - Your Views.

Mon Jun 04, 2012 7:08 pm

Okay guys. Here's your beloved topic back! I have removed the poll in the hope that not having to 'classify' oneself into a particular camp may reduce some of the tension (wishful thinking ;)), and have created a new topic for people to post their reports on what they may have been doing to celebrate the Jubilee.

The team will not welcome those who enter into the other topic purely to dismiss or attack those who have taken part in celebrations, and equally will not tolerate a vice-versa situation whereby those who have opposite views are targeted.

As discussed with the team, the following points are to be of note to EVERY person partaking in this (and any) topic (with thanks to James for the summary):
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Your attention is to be brought specifically to the point that the topic WILL BE LOCKED AND REMOVED if the team deem it to get 'out of hand' at any point, and there will be no 'ifs' or 'buts' about it - you have been warned many, many times now, and all of you should be aware of the rules and expectations that govern this board.

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The Monarchy - Your Views.

Tue Jun 05, 2012 3:43 am

In short, I think the Queen & the Royal Family are a group of people to be admired. The Queen, herself, has a lot to be happy about - The celebrations that have taken part across this country today indicate just how the British people can come together & unite as one!

Bravo!
 
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Re: The Queen's Diamond Jubilee Discussion

Tue Jun 05, 2012 12:42 pm

garyh wrote:
Sam

They were kept away for their own safety, if they had been let near the people out celebrating they would of had more than a bottle thrown at them.  The police did the right thing.


Do you not find it a bit alarming that some of your fellow monarchists are such violent thugs and yobbos? I noticed there was no physical violence from the republicans, maybe because they know their ideas are strong enough that they don't need to resort to hooliganism.

garyh wrote:
And im not a "loyal" morarchist , but on the ONE day when the majority of the UK get together to celebrate something and have a fun day,  I just find it sad that a small minority want to try and spoil it for them.  Im not saying whether we should have a queen or not, but just making the point that let the MAJORITY of people of the UK who want the monarchy to enjoy this day.


What on earth are you talking about, "ONE day"? We have multiple days like that every year, that meet the definition of "the majority of the UK get together to celebrate something and have a fun day". New Years Eve, Christmas Day, England's World Cup matches, and the upcoming Olympic Games to name just a few.
 
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The Monarchy - Your Views.

Tue Jun 05, 2012 1:09 pm

Sam wrote:
Do you not find it a bit alarming that some of your fellow monarchists are such violent thugs and yobbos? I noticed there was no physical violence from the republicans, maybe because they know their ideas are strong enough that they don't need to resort to hooliganism.
I see your point here but surely that's an unfair comparison? Nearly a million people celebrating the Queen's reign versus a couple of hundred obvious republicans protesting against an event that the millions are enjoying? The chances of physical violence occurring in a group of a million is far higher than in a group of 200.


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Re: The Monarchy - Your Views.

Tue Jun 05, 2012 1:34 pm

mrbrightside wrote:
Sam wrote:
Do you not find it a bit alarming that some of your fellow monarchists are such violent thugs and yobbos? I noticed there was no physical violence from the republicans, maybe because they know their ideas are strong enough that they don't need to resort to hooliganism.
I see your point here but surely that's an unfair comparison? Nearly a million people celebrating the Queen's reign versus a couple of hundred obvious republicans protesting against an event that the millions are enjoying? The chances of physical violence occurring in a group of a million is far higher than in a group of 200.


Yes, but this incident obviously only came from the very small percentage of that million who happened to be nearby the republicans. If everyone had been near them, god knows how many bottles would have been thrown. All I'm saying is, it's extremely worrying for freedom of speech, and underlines the North Korean-style cult of personality worship around the Royal Family in this country.

The way people here are comparing the "million" on the streets supporting the boat thingey, compared to the few hundred republicans protesting, they're making it seem like only a fraction of one percent of the UK population are republicans. This isn't true. Only around 80%, four out of five people, favour the monarchy. Really, that's quite a huge chunk of people who don't, around 12 million people. And that number will almost certainly grow when Elizabeth II dies.
 
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Re: The Monarchy - Your Views.

Tue Jun 05, 2012 1:48 pm

The use of the word "only" regarding 80% seems pretty inappropriate there.  I'd be more inclined to describe something which 80% of people are in favour of as having overwhelming support.

Reading that link, it seems that in fact only 13% of people actually want to abolish the monarchy, which extrapolates to roughly 8 million people.  Eighty percent support would by the same assume lead to 48 million being in support of the monarchy.
 
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Re: The Monarchy - Your Views.

Tue Jun 05, 2012 2:30 pm

Four out of five people is a HUGE number of people who support the monarchy.  And I think your wrong, when the Queen dies or decides to pass on the throne, I think even more people will support the monarchy.  Imagine the festivals and celebrations for the Coronation of the new King. 

As for the republicans, you've heard my thoughts, i've nothing more to add and no apologies to make for what I said, which incidentally is echoed in all the major news papers and news sites across the UK.  Unfortunately, the republicans presence that day was on par with the people calling our troops butchers and murders during a homecoming parade, of course people dont want them there, of course they are going to get abuse, and of course (unfortunately) some will resort to direct action.  That doesnt make people thugs, but unfortunately it can infuriate people - surely the republicans would have gone to the event knowing their presence wouldnt be welcome, regardless of freedom of speech blah blah blah.

As for the one day it brings people together - yeah ok NYE etc etc but yesterday was a rare day in that there was a huge outpouring and display of NATIONAL PRIDE, people being proud to be British.  We dont see flags flying everywhere for NYE, or England World Cup matches.  Everyone I have spoken to said they felt proud to be British, everyone said they had a good weekend and everyone said there should be more events like this in the UK.  I think over the past few years people have felt somewhere afraid to show National Pride, well, this weekend changed that. 

No one is ever going to agree on this subject, the arguement can rage on forever, but for now, the monarchy is popular in the UK, and is staying.
 
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Re: The Monarchy - Your Views.

Tue Jun 05, 2012 2:43 pm

It would be interesting to see the regional split of the 20% not directly in favour of the monarchy. I suspect Scotland and Northern Ireland to have a much higher figure than this and hence maybe distorting the overall figures.

Historical polling data shows that the figure wanting a republic has remained at roughly the same levels for the past 19 years. Source Link:Ipsos MORI

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Re: The Monarchy - Your Views.

Tue Jun 05, 2012 2:50 pm

John wrote:
The use of the word "only" regarding 80% seems pretty inappropriate there.  I'd be more inclined to describe something which 80% of people are in favour of as having overwhelming support.


It does have overwhelming support, but the support for republicanism is not insignificant. It was just a point to counter the way people in this thread seem to be implying the republican movement in the UK is just a few hundred loners.

garyh wrote:
Unfortunately, the republicans presence that day was on par with the people calling our troops butchers and murders during a homecoming parade, of course people dont want them there, of course they are going to get abuse, and of course (unfortunately) some will resort to direct action.


Did... did you... did you just compare people who want to abolish the monarchy to al-Qaeda supporting far-right terrorists...? If you knew anything about the history of the world, you'd realise what a grossly offensive and ridiculous statement that was. ಠ_ಠ

garyh wrote:
That doesnt make people thugs


Yes it does, throwing bottles at peaceful protesters makes them exactly that. They could have caused serious injury, it's pretty much the dictionary definition of thugs.
 
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Re: The Monarchy - Your Views.

Tue Jun 05, 2012 3:01 pm

Sam wrote:
It was just a point to counter the way people in this thread seem to be implying the republican movement in the UK is just a few hundred loners
I appreciate that there is more support from republicanism than a few hundred protesters - but the comparison in numbers is still relevant. A million people enjoying a pageant versus 200 protesters is similar to an 80:20 split of the nation.

What is interesting about these polls though is how many of the people who say yay or nay are active supporters either way. If it came down to a poll, how many of those who answered would actually bother to go and vote either way. It's likely that the percentage who actively oppose the monarchy is actually much smaller than 20 (but equally the percentage who actively would support the monarchy is probably much lower than 80).

I also would not be so sure that support will drop when the Queen passes away. Recent events involving the royals have proved their popularity. I can see popularity remaining steady alongside the interest in them. In fact, I wouldn't be surprised to see support peak when William takes to the throne; the Royal Wedding last year showed how immensely popular the Royals are.
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Re: The Monarchy - Your Views.

Tue Jun 05, 2012 3:45 pm

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Re: The Monarchy - Your Views.

Tue Jun 05, 2012 3:52 pm

I find it rather alarming that we're now discussing the black and white version of this debate where you're either a Republican or a Monarchist.

What about the proud percentage of the population who honestly don't care about this particular debate... those who are quite happy having a monarchy, but equally would be satisfyed with a republic? Those who recognise the inherant flaws of the current system, but don't find them great enough to think the effort and uncertainty of becoming a republic are currently worth persuing. Those that view the entire Monarchy debate as the "easy way out" of dealing with the much more inherant problems in our society by focussing on a tiny subject that honestly doesn't matter. At the end of the day there will be an excessivly rich person who probably doesn't deserve to be there as head of state one way or another, so why does it matter in the slightest whether we've voted for them or not?

I surely cannot be the only one?
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Re: The Monarchy - Your Views.

Tue Jun 05, 2012 3:58 pm

Not sure the point of that story - the EDL always cause protests quite often violent wherever they may go. 

Sam - look, like ive said we can argue until we are blue in the face.  The 1 in 5 of us who dont support the monarchy have theirs, the 4 in 5 of us who do have theirs.  Thats it.  As for comparing the republicans to al-Qaeda - nope, not at all, unless you know the people protesting at the troops homecoming were members of al-Qaeda????  I was making the following point.  A large group of people welcoming home troops and a small group of people protesting against the troops is going to equal disturbances.  The same applies to this event in London for the Queen.

You cant expect people to go to a Jubilee celebration to protest not to encounter any form of abuse or aggression!!  Unfortunately it exists.  People will get irate and angry.  Its like walking into a pub in Middle England during a world cup game, wearing the opposite teams colours and shouting "down with the English".  Sure that person has the right to do it, but you can also expect some choice words to be said to him.

Thats the point im making, sure people can protest, but when the majority of people are there supporting the monarchy, you can expect not to at least have some form of "abuse" directed at you.  I dont agree with violence or the throwing of bottles by the way and im not suggesting that in any way.

MrBrightSide hit the nail on the head as well with the comment about when William takes the throne Royal support will soar even higher than it is now, much higher. 

The funny thing is, im not even bothered if we have a monarchy or not, I came into the debate saying how good it was to see the UK brought together, flags flying etc and seeing everyone celebrating.  The fact we have a monarchy, well ok thats fine, wouldnt bother me if we did or didnt to be honest, but im sure if there was a UK vote on the matter, the majority of people would vote to keep the Monarchy. 

Anyway thats my views, you have your own, and we'll just agree to disagree.
 
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Re: The Monarchy - Your Views.

Tue Jun 05, 2012 4:10 pm

Squiggles wrote:
I find it rather alarming that we're now discussing the black and white version of this debate where you're either a Republican or a Monarchist.

What about the proud percentage of the population who honestly don't care about this particular debate... those who are quite happy having a monarchy, but equally would be satisfyed with a republic? Those who recognise the inherant flaws of the current system, but don't find them great enough to think the effort and uncertainty of becoming a republic are currently worth persuing. Those that view the entire Monarchy debate as the "easy way out" of dealing with the much more inherant problems in our society by focussing on a tiny subject that honestly doesn't matter. At the end of the day there will be an excessivly rich person who probably doesn't deserve to be there as head of state one way or another, so why does it matter in the slightest whether we've voted for them or not?

I surely cannot be the only one?


No, you're not the only one. That's pretty much my viewpoint as well. :)
 
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Re: The Monarchy - Your Views.

Tue Jun 05, 2012 4:11 pm

Squiggles - I agree there are more pressing issues and I stand for a great number of causes, republicanism only being one. You can be passionate for the wish to get a Republic whilst being passionate about other injustices.

Republicanism comes to light at times such as these huge celebrations because I think it would be inappropriate for us Republicans to keep quiet when we see an institution which we feel is fundamentally immoral being celebrated.

However, I would like to argue that all these celebrations of Monarchy are far more distracting of other political issues.

Garyh - I would never protest soldiers coming home as me and those people are very different and I recognise whatever the political position you hold, the soldiers are doing a job. I think they should protest the politicians not the soldiers. To associate us with those protesters is completely  misguided and a gross misrepresentation of all republicans. In fact, we republicans stopped some silly "anarchists" from burning a Union Jack because we are proud to be British but not of the Queen. I would like you to take that back.

And Gary, I would never dream of abusing or being aggressive to any of the monarchists going to celebrate so they should afford me the same courtesy. By accepting aggression and violence and telling us that republicans should have expected it makes as much sense as telling a rape victim that they were asking for it. You are condoning the sorts of behavior that the EDL commit.

People should be able to protest peacefully and we are constantly denied that right because there is a significant percentage of the Monarchist camp who are unreasonable and will not let us do that. You should be condemning abuse being thrown at us as I would condemn any in the opposite direction.
Last edited by Meat Pie on Tue Jun 05, 2012 4:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The Monarchy - Your Views.

Tue Jun 05, 2012 4:40 pm

Squiggles wrote:
I surely cannot be the only one?
You most certainly are not!

I am not a 'monarchist' as such, but have simply been debating like one because I am perfectly happy with the way things are now. I would much rather have our traditional head of state than bother with the hassle and effort to create some elected position which would remove the occasion, the history, the tradition and the love. If we had a President of some form - we would not have occasions such as the Jubilee and there would undoubtedly be nowhere near as much support for them.

The main reason I have been debating in this is because I don't really see the point in changing things - though I know some people feel much more strongly about this than I do.
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Re: The Monarchy - Your Views.

Tue Jun 05, 2012 4:50 pm

Meat Pie wrote:
.....because there is a significant percentage of the Monarchist camp who are unreasonable and will not let us do that.


Can't be bothered with the rest of it going round in circles, suffice to say you will find morons not playing by the rules in every single group of society whatever the cause associating them.

But that? Rubbish. A significant percentage of 80% odd of the population will not allow Republic peaceful protest? That's millions of people? I don't think there are even millions of people aware of you, let alone actively disrupting your peacefulness or caring about your minority views.
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Re: The Monarchy - Your Views.

Tue Jun 05, 2012 4:52 pm

http://news.uk.msn.com/blog/trending-bl ... 16b0a75d28

Yep, the queen and her upper class tory cronies clearly cares about the lower classes and less fortunates in British society don't they?

:roll:
 
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Re: The Monarchy - Your Views.

Tue Jun 05, 2012 5:00 pm

Meat Pie wrote:
Garyh - I would never protest soldiers coming home as me and those people are very different and I recognise whatever the political position you hold, the soldiers are doing a job. I think they should protest the politicians not the soldiers. To associate us with those protesters is completely  misguided and a gross misrepresentation of all republicans. In fact, we republicans stopped some silly "anarchists" from burning a Union Jack because we are proud to be British but not of the Queen. I would like you to take that back.


Your missing the point, and there is nothing for me to take back.  My point is that these people who wanted to go and protest at soliders coming home amongst people celebrating the soldiers coming home are doing basically the same as what the republicans did - while in different context, you are exercising your freedom of speech.  If these people wanted to go and protest at soliders coming home, then they had the right to do it.  You had the right to protest, which you did, allbeit not in the spot you would have liked.  Same thing, just different reasons. 

And Gary, I would never dream of abusing or being aggressive to any of the monarchists going to celebrate so they should afford me the same courtesy. By accepting aggression and violence and telling us that republicans should have expected it makes as much sense as telling a rape victim that they were asking for it. You are condoning the sorts of behavior that the EDL commit.


The EDL are a bunch of football hooligans, and violence and aggresion is usually present in their ranks.  The point I was making was that where you find the EDL, you will find trouble.  Stick a republican protesting against the monarchy in the middle of the EDL and yes trouble will break out.  Im not condoning it, im being realistic, it will happen.  Like ive been saying all along, the police moving you was for your safety, the bottle being thrown was proof of this.  Whether or not society is violent or not or aggresive is another seperate debate, but as you can tell from online discussions, things get heated at times.  As for the rape victim comment, i'll just LOL at that one as its so way off the mark.

People should be able to protest peacefully and we are constantly denied that right because there is a significant percentage of the Monarchist camp who are unreasonable and will not let us do that. You should be condemning abuse being thrown at us as I would condemn any in the opposite direction.


I agree, people should be able to protest peacefully, I totally agree, I have never said they shouldnt be able, but what I am saying her is be realistic, unfortunately you are going to find people who firmly believe in their cause who will be abusive and violent to support it.  Its life im afraid, in any country, infact, in the UK we are generally a lot more tollerant when you compare us to other countries.  Given that the republicans wanted their "safe" spot to protest it, obviously you guys knew there may be the real possibility of trouble.  Again, your missing the point entirely, im not condonining it, im just living in the real world. 

Like I said to Sam, and i'll say to you, we'll also have agree to disagree on this one.    You have your views, I have mine.
 
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Re: The Monarchy - Your Views.

Tue Jun 05, 2012 5:27 pm

The difference between soldiers and the Queen is that the individual soldiers have no position of authority over their role where as the Queen does as she is the top of the tree. To protest someone who has no hardships and is in control of the situation is vastly different from protesting people who are made to implement policies.

As for our protest, we were not allowed, we did it despite the wishes of the police. We were told to leave which we did not as we were not being afford our right to protest. Also, it was not just the spot we were denied, it was our equipment and facilities and even a lot of our speakers. All of which were kept inside and therefore our protest ended up being whatever we could scrape together rather then the well-organised protest we had spent months planning.

I'm not hearing enough monarchists condemn the abuse and I think they really ought to if they want any respect for their position. To say that it was going to happen is accepting that policing will fail, and we wouldn't accept that in any other walk of life. You could just say "well people are going to be racist, there's nothing you can do about that..." Well actually, that's not good enough.

I'm sorry but until you actually explain why my rape analogy is wrong, it stands strong. You seem to be supporting the position that if you protest, you ought to expect abuse. That's really not far off of if you dress promiscuously then you should expect to be raped.

Yes we did know that there was the possibility of trouble but that shouldn't deter us from protesting, and what would have been best for everyone involved, monarchists and republicans alike would have been to let us protest in our designated spot. The only people who benefited are the pro-royal press, and might I add it wouldn't exactly be the first example of the metropolitan police working in the interests of popular media.

Agreeing to disagree sounds like a good way for us to move forward. :)
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